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Americans : aren't you convinced now that Iran is peaceful and Israel is war monger ?

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 11:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
That certainly can't be negated. And the Russians paid it back to the Germans: less than half of the 3.15 million German POWs in Russia survived (and the last came back in 1956).


Not to mention the massive raping and murdering when they overran Germany as paid back for similar deeds however take note that Stalin offer near the beginning of the war to follow the terms of the Geneva Convention even those the USSR did not sign the convension and Hitler turn down that offer.

Whatever happen to Germany and German POWs on the Eastern front was mostly on their own hands.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 11:31 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:
Anytime individuals choose to give their one life, it surely must be out of sheer desperation, and truly who among us will deny the Palestinians are a desperate people, and a desperate people may become a dangerous people. The occupation in the disputed territories is the root cause

Nonsense. The occupation ended back in the 1990s, back when people foolishly believed that the Palestinians were willing to make peace.

And what are the Palestinians supposed to be desperate for? They could have a state based on 1967 borders simply by agreeing to make peace with Israel.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
and the chasing the Palestinians from the homes which today is called modern Israel. The root cause of the trouble is conceive via the displacement and the refugees who are not allowed to become Israelis even.

Were the Palestinians to ever make peace and accept a state based on 1967 borders, the refugees could become part of that state.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
These displaced Palestinians are crying out to the international community who has heard their cry. They are now recognized in the UN a status which the US tried to prevent as a favor to Israel.

That was a unilateral move which largely ended prospects that the Palestinians could ever receive a state based on 1967 borders.

And yet somehow, when all hope was lost and it looked like due to the UN's aggression that the Palestinians were just going to have to be deported out of the West Bank, somehow Secretary Kerry managed to rescue negotiations and get the peace process back on track.

It really is a sad commentary on things that you anti-Semites reacted to this one last miracle of a chance at peace by spewing lie after hateful lie in order to poison the atmosphere behind the negotiations.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
You complain of Palestinians atrocities against Israel but there are even worse atrocities against the Palestinian refugees by Israel.

No there aren't. All Israel ever does is try to defend themselves against people who refuse to stop attacking them.

It's not an atrocity for a Jew to defend himself.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Remember the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982, for starters? It was the slaughter of between 762 and 3,500 civilians, mostly Palestinians and Lebanese Shiites, by a Lebanese Christian militia in the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut, Lebanon from approximately 6:00 pm 16 September to 8:00 am 18 September 1982.

Hardly an atrocity "by Israel".


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Israel has no rights beyond the 56% land she was given in 1948.

Nonsense. Until such time as Israel voluntarily hands land over to someone else, they have every right to do whatever they want with that land.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Israel is an expansionist nation and personally I don't think it will ever be satisfied with the land it has, the land it continues to steal from the Palestinians.

Nope. Israel has stolen nothing. And Israel has repeatedly shown that they are willing to give up land in exchange for peace.


Moment-in-Time wrote:
Now this might sound farfetched but I think Israel would dearly love to take over one of the rich oil states. Right after GWB adm had invaded Iraq, Nouri Al-Maliki, Iraq's Prime Minister, was asked if Israel could have a pipeline run from Iraq to Israel. Maliki said "no." That the Arab league would have to sanction such a move and they were not going to while Israel remains far removed from her 1967 borders. That was quite a disappointment to the US and Israel because the Zionist nation was sure it was going to profit from the ouster of Saddam hussein and partake of Iraq's oil.

The reason it sounds far fetched is due to the fact that it is anti-Semitic malarkey.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:18 pm
@BillRM,
My father commanded 1941/2 an armoured ambulance - the first thing he did, was toremove the red cross on it, because that was a target for the Russians.

He was taken POW by US-troops, after they shot at him (lieutenant surgeon) three times. Two days later, he was mock-executed (= had to shovel his grave and a troop of soldiers aimed at him and other non-combatants).

During such a war, the Geneva Convention isn't worse the paper its written on.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:19 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Why would anyone have an opinion about Tibet if one is not Chinese or Tibetan?

It's called having fellow feeling for others. Something I wouldn't expect you to understand.

As taxpayers we all should have an opinion on how our taxes are being spent.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.


Martin Niemöller


Do the Tibetans get equal time from Izzy?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
But, note that ex-Nazis became "good Germans" by the early 1950's, ...
Quote:
Denazification (German: Entnazifizierung) was an Allied initiative to rid German and Austrian society, culture, press, economy, judiciary, and politics of any remnants of the National Socialist (Nazi) ideology. The program of denazification was launched after the end of the Second World War and was solidified by the Potsdam Agreement.

That didn't imply those persons became "good Germans" or "good Austrians" = the result was/is noted in the 'certificate of conduct'.

In France, denazification was called épuration légale ("legal cleansing"). As far as I know, denazification was done in other countries as well.


You are not picking up on my nuance. Germany, the land of the Third Reich, became an ally by the early 1950's because the popular conception that was disseminated was that Germans are going to be "good Germans" with no more marching and torchlight parades and clicking heels. They'll be an asset to the western nations. Ex-Nazis had sentences commuted. Got jobs and became just German citizens. The concept of Denazification was a success because the ex-Nazis accepted the reality that their dream was "gone with the wind." There would be no "resurgence" of Naziism.

My point was that some Americans think of Israel as the proverbial demonized Jew, and when there was the tragedy of torpedoing the USS Liberty during the 1967 war, that was a sin that can never be forgiven. The reality is that nations care about themselves, and to believe that Israel was going to allow another nation to "monitor" the 1967 war was a very poor calculation, in my opinion. So, while some still tell others to "remember the USS Liberty," few were telling others during the Berlin Airlift to remember the V-2's. Just the standard double standard by some Gentiles when it comes to thinking about Jews, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:33 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:

Israel can certainly talk the talk, but whether they've got the balls to actually walk the walk remains to be seen..Wink

"We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force.
Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: "Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother"
We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under"- Israeli military strategist Martin van Creveld, 2003





Then it might behoove you to spread the word that Jews in Israel somehow became less timid than the Jews that marched silently into the gas chambers.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:37 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

BillRM wrote:

Hell Wernher von Braun himself held high rank in the SS ...
Not really, he just was a Sturmbannführer (major) in the Allgemeine SS (("Universal SS") .


I thought Wernher von Braun was so wrapped up in his science that politics had little meaning to him?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:47 pm
@Foofie,
I suppose that's exactly the reason why he joined the NSDAP and later the SS: to carry on with his works. But he was a loyal, "mildly enthusiastic" follower of Hitler and Nazi government, without doubts.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:47 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
because he develops weapons for the army/armed forces.


Knowing that those weapons was being build by slave labor with a very high death toll among the workers due to starvation, disease and even torture?

In other word he knew full well the kind of government he was aiding at the time and the cost to the whole human race including his own countrymen of his doing so.


I believe it was not wise to bury one's talents, so to speak, under the Nazis, since being efficient, they would know who was trying to not help the Third Reich. Not good for one's health; perhaps, even for one's family. In my opinion, Germans were also captives, as well as "the enemy" in POW camps. I prefer to temper justice with mercy, especially in context of the extenuating circumstances of the very efficient German secret police.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

There are many people who would say that about Einstein...and other people who have worked in, and for, the United States, Bill.

Scientists do what scientists do. They do science. Often the morality of the science is ambiguous.


Einstein might be a bad example, since he left Germany in time not to be exterminated.

And, the word "ambiguous" should be replaced by "non-sequitur" possibly, since science for scientists, in my opinion, is just part of human's search for answers that politics has no involvement in many times.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 12:56 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Sturmbannführer was the SS-rank equivalent to major.

Lieutenant colonel would have been Obersturmbannführer.


The point here might be whether anyone BEGRUDGES Wehrner von Braun for his charmed life. Considering he wound up on the "correct" side (after the war), I'd say "Bravo" for coming through the Third Reich unscathed. If he was a bullfighter in Spain, women would have been throwing flowers to him.

I think I now have the incentive to read his biography.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 01:00 pm
@BillRM,
What country did you live in before you came to the U S of A? As soon as he was brought to the U S of A it was common knowledge that he had been in the SS.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 01:08 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I suppose that's exactly the reason why he joined the NSDAP and later the SS: to carry on with his works. But he was a loyal, "mildly enthusiastic" follower of Hitler and Nazi government, without doubts.


It can all be "unconscious" cognitive dissonance. Meaning, for example, when some young men, who as civilians had long hair, and played hipee, but then found themselves drafted into the Vietman War, they became "gung-ho" soldiers, because it was too much "cognitive dissonance" to find themselves in the Army, having been a hipee as a civilian. This is known as an UNCONSCIOUS coping mechanism, not a conscious coping ("defense") mechanism (such as dieting, if one doesn't like comments about one's weight).

Who am I to judge another under such dire circumstances. Much of Germany was dealing with a very alien form of German culture, since it was the 20th century, and the ancient times were being promulgated as the best of times.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 01:23 pm
@Foofie,
Though in Nazi Germany and in hippie USA the coping strategies were a bit different ... especially in their results.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 01:39 pm
@Foofie,

Quote:
Do the Tibetans get equal time from Izzy?


Those who support the people of Tibet without acknowledging the plight of the Palestinians are dilettantes. China is an integral part of the World economy, realistically we can't apply any sanctions without hurting global trade. And, whenever China is questioned about Tibet it can always cite Palestine as an example of Western double thinking and hypocrisy.

The West props up Israel, directly through aid and grants and indirectly through trade. We can put pressure on Israel to bring about positive change. If Palestine receives justice China will no longer be able to use it to rebuff questions about Tibet.
Moment-in-Time
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Oct, 2013 03:37 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:

Einstein might be a bad example, since he left Germany in time not to be exterminated.


Albert Einstein, already quite celebrated in the world of physics, was visiting the United States when Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933 and did not return to Germany, where he had been a professor at the Berlin Academy of Sciences. He settled in the U.S., becoming an American citizen in 1940. The actual extermination of Jews did not come about until some years later.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Oct, 2013 11:44 am
@Moment-in-Time,
Moment-in-Time wrote:

Quote:

Einstein might be a bad example, since he left Germany in time not to be exterminated.


Albert Einstein, already quite celebrated in the world of physics, was visiting the United States when Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933 and did not return to Germany, where he had been a professor at the Berlin Academy of Sciences. He settled in the U.S., becoming an American citizen in 1940. The actual extermination of Jews did not come about until some years later.


The parsing of time lines doesn't prove anything of import, in my opinion.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Oct, 2013 11:46 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:


Quote:
Do the Tibetans get equal time from Izzy?


Those who support the people of Tibet without acknowledging the plight of the Palestinians are dilettantes. China is an integral part of the World economy, realistically we can't apply any sanctions without hurting global trade. And, whenever China is questioned about Tibet it can always cite Palestine as an example of Western double thinking and hypocrisy.

The West props up Israel, directly through aid and grants and indirectly through trade. We can put pressure on Israel to bring about positive change. If Palestine receives justice China will no longer be able to use it to rebuff questions about Tibet.


When you refer to the importance of the world economy, and China's role in it, are you singing "Money Makes the World Go 'Round" a la Joel Grey in Cabaret? Poor excuse, in my opinion, to use money as a rationale for not equal concern, considering "money" was always the negative stereotype of guess who.
0 Replies
 
 

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