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Americans : aren't you convinced now that Iran is peaceful and Israel is war monger ?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 02:15 am
@BillRM,
The comment in your preceding post shows that you just think of things in terms of absolutes.

Quote:
An how does your comment mean that he was not a officer in the SS??????


SS/not SS, black/white, acid/alkali. It's how you think, and not just about SS membership, about bloody everything.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 05:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
Not really, he just was a Sturmbannführer (major) in the Allgemeine SS (("Universal SS") .


An how does your comment mean that he was not a officer in the SS??????
It doesn't mean that at all. And wasn't at all intended to be susuch a response or comment.
What I just slightly correct your statemen:
Walter Hinteler wrote:

BillRM wrote:

Hell Wernher von Braun himself held high rank in the SS ...
Not really, he just was a Sturmbannführer (major) in the Allgemeine SS (("Universal SS") .
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 05:59 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
LOL where did I ever stated that Wernher von Braun was a strong Nazis instead of a man just willing to bend any moral consideration, in order to "play" with rockets?
He started "to play with rockets" in the early 1930's at the Wehrmacht's testing range (Heeresversuchsanstalt Kummersdorf). I'm not someone who judges another about his "moral consideration" because he develops weapons for the army/armed forces.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 07:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
because he develops weapons for the army/armed forces.


Knowing that those weapons was being build by slave labor with a very high death toll among the workers due to starvation, disease and even torture?

In other word he knew full well the kind of government he was aiding at the time and the cost to the whole human race including his own countrymen of his doing so.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 07:43 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
because he develops weapons for the army/armed forces.


Knowing that those weapons was being build by slave labor with a very high death toll among the workers due to starvation, disease and even torture?

In other word he knew full well the kind of government he was aiding at the time and the cost to the whole human race including his own countrymen of his doing so.


There are many people who would say that about Einstein...and other people who have worked in, and for, the United States, Bill.

Scientists do what scientists do. They do science. Often the morality of the science is ambiguous.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 07:58 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Knowing that those weapons was being build by slave labor with a very high death toll among the workers due to starvation, disease and even torture?

In other word he knew full well the kind of government he was aiding at the time and the cost to the whole human race including his own countrymen of his doing so.

The "Heeresversuchsanstalt Kummersdorf" was a military installation. And there weren't any "slave workers" besides soldiers.

Peenemünde Army Research Center (Heeresversuchsanstalt Peenemünde) was a military installation as well. An uncle (mathematician) worked there as a soldier, at the Luftwaffe Test Site. You can visit it (both sites) today (done that with some A2K'ers).

"Slave workers" and POW's worked there as they did all over in Germany.

(My father worked three years in France as a POW, head of the interior department of a large hospital, than leading family doctor in a middle-seized town. He got paid the equivalent of $3/year [42FF].)
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 08:24 am
@Frank Apisa,
You're dealing with a very primitive mind Frank, one that has no concept of nuance, and only deals in absolutes.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 08:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
There are many people who would say that about Einstein...and other people who have worked in, and for, the United States, Bill.

Scientists do what scientists do. They do science. Often the morality of the science is ambiguous.


Nonsense when you are doing that science in the service of such a government as the Nazis in the 1930s t0 1940s happen to be.

One of the real motivators of the scientists working on the US/UK bomb project was the fear that the Germans would get a bomb first. Some of those scientists having escape the gas death chambers of the Nazis by the skin of their teeth.

In any case western scientists at the time was not unaware of the moral components of developing such weapons and even ask that the first weapons be used in a demonstration mode
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 08:27 am
@izzythepush,
,
Quote:
one that has no concept of nuance, and only deals in absolutes.


You seems a fine example of an absolute mind my friend not myself.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 08:31 am
@BillRM,
I'm no friend of yours.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 08:55 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I'm no friend of yours.


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
(My father worked three years in France as a POW, head of the interior department of a large hospital, than leading family doctor in a middle-seized town. He got paid the equivalent of $3/year [42FF].)


Somehow I do not think you can compare your father working conditions to these poor men.


Quote:


http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/mittel.html

In early December, 1942, Albert Speer, German Armaments Minister, set up the “A-4 Special Committee”, headed by Gerhard Degenkolb, a fanatical Nazi. As a Director of the DEMAG company, Degenkolb had previously succeeded in a remarkably efficient reorganization of German production of railroad locomotives. During 1943, Degenkolb pushed to have production of the V-2 rocket organized more along the industrial model and taken from the control of Army Ordinance (Wa Pruf 11), with its bureaucratic procedures and slow moving organization. Walter Dornberger, chief of Wa Pruf 11, resented and resisted Degenkolb’s attempt to take over V-2 production.

However, manpower was in very short supply. Therefore, in April of 1943 Arthur Rudolph, the Chief Production Engineer of the Peenemünde V-2 assembly effort and a prewar colleague of von Braun, toured the Heinkel aircraft plant north of Berlin and returned enthused about the possibility of using concentration camp labor (mostly Russians, Poles, and French) for production of the V-2. These concentration camp inmates were referred to as “detainees” (Haftlinge) and would supplement the “guest workers” who had already been recruited (and were paid small amounts of wages) by the Germans. So in June, 1943, Peenemünde requested some 1,400 detainees from the SS concentration camps, and initially set the maximum number of these workers 2,500. An assembly line was set up at Peenemünde on the lower floor of Building F1. This line, which opened on July 16th, was the precursor of the rail-borne horizontal transport type of assembly later used at Mittelwerk.

V-2 parts, however, were never designed to be fully interchangeable. Combustion chambers, fuel pumps, and many valves had to be matched up to each other and specifically tested and regulated for each missile. This meant that each V-2's engine assembly had to be test-fired prior to final assembly. Wernher Von Braun was in charge of these final acceptance tests. On August 4, 1943, Peenemünde made the decision that V-2 production would be carried out for the most part using concentration camp labor in a ratio reported to have been set at 10 to 15 detainees to every German worker. The SS, which ran the camps, became the supplier and organizer of V-2 production manpower. A small concentration camp was in fact located in the basement of Building F1 at the base.

On the night of August 17-18, 1943, the Allies mounted a massive air raid on Peenemünde. This raid forced the Germans to look for hardened underground production locations for the V-2, and for many other key weapons production projects as well. In a meeting on August 26, 1943, a series of pre-existing tunnels under Kohnstein Mountain near Nordhausen were chosen for the new plant, to become known as the Mittelwerk (Middle Works). The Mittelwerk was incorporated as a private company on September 24, 1943, and received a contract for the production of 12,000 V-2s. After meeting with Hitler on August 18th, SS Chief Heinrich Himmler had informed Armaments Minister Speer that he was personally taking over V-2 production and placing SS Brigadier General Hans Kammler in charge of the Mittelbau complex. It was Kammler who had been in charge of building of the extermination camps and gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Maidenek, and Belzec.

The tunnel system at Mittelwerk had been started back in 1934 by another government run mining company (Wifo). The Kohnstein Mountain itself into which the Mittelwerk factory was built is gypsum, anhydrite—therefore fairly easily dug. Later, these tunnels had been used as a storage facility for oil, gasoline, and poison gas. In October, 1940, the Armaments Ministry in Berlin approved expansion of the Wifo site, creating two parallel S-shaped tunnels, connected at regular intervals by cross tunnels resembling the rungs of a ladder. By late 1943, 46 cross tunnels existed, and each of the main tunnels (called “A” and “B”) was wide enough to permit twin regular gauge railroad tracks to run through them.

Tunnels.

On August 28, 1943, two days after the choice of the Mittelwerk, the SS delivered the first truckloads of prisoners from the concentration camp at Buchenwald to begin the heavy labor of expanding and completing of the Wifo tunnel system. Dora was the name given to the Buchenwald subcamp that was set up within the tunnels for the laborers. By November of the same year, the subcamp became independant and the surrounding workshops became known as KZ Mittelbau. Later, fbeginning in the spring of 1944, Dora was transformed into a more traditional camp, with 58 barracks buildings surrounded by barbed wire being set up about a quarter mile west of the south entrance to Tunnel B. Camp construction was not completed until October, 1944.

It was during October, November, and December of 1943 that the most physically punishing work was done by the Dora prisoners, who struggled under terrible, inhuman conditions to enlarge and fit out the Mittelwerk tunnels. Prisoners drilled and blasted away thousands of tons of rock. They built rickety, temporary narrow gauge tracks to support the multi-ton loads of rock that were extracted from the caves. If the skips or small rail cars, full of rock fell off these tracks (and this happened frequently), prisoners were kicked, whipped, and beaten until they could re-rail and reload the cars.

The prisoners were made to eat and sleep within the tunnels they were digging. Thousands of workers were crammed into stinking, lice infested bunks stacked four-high in the first few south side cross tunnels at the mouth of Tunnel A, in an atmosphere thick with gypsum dust and fumes from the blasting work, which continued 24 hours a day. Prisoners had no running water or sanitary facilities. Dysentery, typhus, tuberculosis, and starvation were constant causes of suffering and death for these unfortunate people. The Detainees worked atop 30 foot scaffolds using picks to enlarge the tunnels. From time to time, a prisoner would become too weak to continue, fall to his death from the scaffolding, and be replaced by another. Trucks bearing piles of prisoner corpses left every other day for the crematorium ovens at Buchenwald. All of the manufacturing equipment from Peenemünde had to be installed in the tunnels. This was done by hand by prisoner workers using hand-carts, block and tackle, huge skids pulled by teams of prisoners, and the temporary narrow gauge rail lines.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:12 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Somehow I do not think you can compare your father working conditions to these poor men.
Quote:

I had no intention at all to compare his work with the circumstances in concentration camps. I referred to POW's.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:14 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Nonsense when you are doing that science in the service of such a government as the Nazis in the 1930s t0 1940s happen to be.
Well, of course all scientists should have stopped working from 1933 onwards. Unfortunately, they didn't.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
BillRM wrote:

Hell Wernher von Braun himself held high rank in the SS ...
Not really, he just was a Sturmbannführer (major) in the Allgemeine SS (("Universal SS") .
I 'm under the impression that he rose
to the rank of Lt. Colonel.





David
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Sturmbannführer was the SS-rank equivalent to major.

Lieutenant colonel would have been Obersturmbannführer.
BillRM
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 09:45 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I had no intention at all to compare his work with the circumstances in concentration camps. I referred to POW's.


First, I am somewhat shock that a German any German would be doing his very best to minimized the sins of the Nazis government.

Next being an American or Brit in a German POW camp build for them is not the hell that the Nazis provided for Russians and other POWs from the Eastern front.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 10:11 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
First, I am somewhat shock that a German any German would be doing his very best to minimized the sins of the Nazis government.
I would be shocked as well.
However, that's done quite often, by neo-Nazis, here in Germany and elsewhere.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 10:17 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Next being an American or Brit in a German POW camp build for them is not the hell that the Nazis provided for Russians and other POWs from the Eastern front.
That certainly can't be negated. And the Russians paid it back to the Germans: less than half of the 3.15 million German POWs in Russia survived (and the last came back in 1956).
RABEL222
 
  2  
Thu 10 Oct, 2013 10:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
Come on Frank. There is a Judaeo, christian, muslam book that one can refer to to find the definition of right and wrong. As a matter of fact you can find justification for anything you think or do somewhere in these books.
0 Replies
 
 

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