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The original universal health care system

 
 
Reply Sat 28 Sep, 2013 04:38 pm
http://stop-obama-now.net/hitlercare/

HitlerCare

Quote:

........Once you have given the Government that much power, there is no natural barrier between you and the Holocaust of the Nazis. It is only a matter of degree, of how far they want to take this concept that social welfare trumps individual rights.

This is the inherent evil of universal healthcare. It gives Government the right to decide life and death for entire classes of society, as opposed to individuals contracting for their own healthcare. This is why Hitler liked universal healthcare so much that he imposed it on conquered countries, not exactly because he was so concerned for the well being of the subjected peoples, but because it gave him the right over entire classes of people to decide who lives and who dies. It gave him the power to engineer the composition of society to his own malicious requirements. Entire classes of people can be eliminated with no judicial process being necessary.........
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Type: Discussion • Score: 3 • Views: 3,053 • Replies: 18

 
Qasim555
 
  0  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 12:18 am
@gungasnake,
Great article about health care. Good work so nice buddy.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 01:00 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Otto von Bismarck, the Chancellor of Germany, and something of a dictator in his own right, started socialized healthcare in 1883 with the Reichsversicherungsverordnung or Reich Insurance Act. However, only certain segments of the society were insured at that time, such as government workers and the elderly. It was Adolf Hitler, who actually imposed socialized healthcare on the entire German population, as a part of nazification of the healthcare industry.

That disregards all known historic facts.

The statutory health insurance, established by law in 1883, was was built upon on already existing voluntary or mandatory local schemes of social insurance.
It was altered and expanded in 1884, 1887 and 1927, in modern times again in 1994.

The origins of our social and health care system in the mutual-aid societies of the guilds that was seen partly already at the end of the Middle Ages but became common with all guilds at least since 1700.

1849, health insurance for certain professions was already mandatory in Prussia.


Since at the end of WWI there had been more than 22,000 health insurance funds/companies offering mandatory insurances in all Germany, this number was reduced over the years to (today) 150.

During the Weimar Republic, the Hitler regime, the times of Allied Controlled Governments and especially later, the former Imperial Insurance Regulations were changed and altered.
During the period of National Socialism, the fundamental structures
of the social insurance system, including health care financing and delivery, were maintained. Statutory health insurance coverage was extended to pensioners (1941), and sickness funds became legally obliged to provide hospital care not only to members but also to dependants (1936), which, however, had been voluntarily provided since decades by nearly all providers.

My health insurer, Innungskrankenkasse, was origianally founded in 1785 in my small native town by members of local guilts. In 1887 at became a provider in our district. In the 1980's it merged statewide ...
Lordyaswas
 
  5  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 01:36 am
@gungasnake,
............"the inherent evil of Universal Healthcare".

What moron wrote that?

Britain has had this since 1948, and although there is always room for improvement, I would say that the NHS has been the second most important, positive thing that has happened to my country in the entire 20th Century.
THE most important happening centred around Alexander Fleming in 1928, and ended up greatly benefitting the entire world, so must take first place.

Gunga, you are copy/pasting total shite again, you silly person.
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:16 am
@Lordyaswas,
http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/britain%E2%80%99s-nhs-nightmare-a-warning-to-america

Quote:

The pioneers of Britain’s welfare state may have had good intentions. By founding the National Health Service (NHS) in 1948, they hoped to improve access to treatment for the poor. But, more than sixty years on, it has become a bureaucratic monster that ranks among the worst-performing health care systems in the developed world.

Socialist central planning failed in the Soviet Union, and it has failed again in the NHS. In the absence of market prices, resources must be rationed by state officials. And as Russian housewives once queued for bread, British patients now queue for health care. Winston Churchill once defined socialism as “Queuetopia”.

Today the NHS has many hundreds of thousands of people on waiting lists. Despite years of reform and tens of billions of pounds of extra funding, it is still common for patients to wait several months for routine procedures such as hip replacements.

Even those with potentially fatal conditions may face long delays, while life saving treatments are often denied by bureaucrats on grounds of cost......
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 02:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Just a bit more facts (sic! Facts, not opinions based on ignorance)

The oldest (and still existing) mandatory insurance in Germany is the Hamburger Feuer-Versicherung ('Hamburg Fire Insurance Company) from 1676.
In 1678 (printed versions exist from 1680) Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz wrote, that such and similar should be founded for everyone, to get insured against bad luck what could happen to a person.

In Prussia, all (including mandatory and voluntarily) insurances were regulated by special laws from 1794 onwards.

In 1820, the oldest (and still existing) mutual (health and) fire insurance company as founded in Gotha.


Etc etc etc
Most of this can easily be looked up in the 4 volumes (more than 20 source books) of "Quellensammlung zur Geschichte der deutschen Sozialpolitik 1867 bis 1914". Pre-1867 sources can found easily as well.

The "Museum of insurance history" in Gotha is momentarily closed.
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Pre-1867 sources can found easily as well.


The best source for older German (health) insurance laws and regulations is the insurance magazine "Rundschau der Versicherungen", first published in 1851 (from 1888 onwards until 1922 called "Massius' Rundschau")

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps95bb1b32.jpg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
In Prussia, all (including mandatory and voluntarily) insurances were regulated by special laws from 1794 onwards.
The related articles in the Allgemeine Landrecht für die preußischen Staaten ("General state laws for the Prussian states") reasoned for those special laws are article II 7 § 122 ALR and article II 7 § 130 ALR.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 03:41 am
@gungasnake,
"Entire classes of people can be eliminated with no judicial process being necessary........."

actually, gunky, this is exactly what the republicans are doing by refusing obamacare. trying to eliminate poor folks by attrition...
Lordyaswas
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 04:05 am
@gungasnake,
Gunga, until you actually post something in your own words, and not just a link with a cut and paste from some idiot that suits your google search words, I'm not bothering to respond to you.

You are an ignoramus.

Worse than that, you are a lazy ignoramus.

You simply find articles to fit in with your warped, and quite frankly, usually comically ignorant view of the world. Then you cut and paste, and cut and paste a response to anyone who may argue the point.

I will not waste any more of my time on someone who is not prepared to spend HIS time on preparing and actually composing his own post.

Lazy ignoramus.

Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 05:23 am
@gungasnake,
Leaving aside problems and/or history of the NHS as well as what happens or happened in the USA but coming back to the original title of this thread and what gunga wrote resp. quoted about it

Quote:
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zpsc06a5fcd.jpg

http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/b_zps709fdc8b.jpg


As written above, the mandatory healthcare has a history, starting centuries before the Nazi-period.

The main reason, why existing laws in Germany could be changed very easily (parliament either just had to nod or wasn't informed before publication at all) was the Enabling Act of 1933.

During the period of National Socialism (1933–1945) the fundamental structures of the social insurance system, including health care financing and delivery, were maintained. As already mentioned above, mandatory health insurance coverage was extended to pensioners (1941), and health insurers became legally obliged to provide hospital care not
only to members but also to dependants (1936). (As well as the health insurance had to pay the funeral of its members - something, which was only changed a few years ago.)

However, access to services and cash benefits from statutory health insurance, accident and old age insurance was increasingly restricted or denied to the Jewish population and other stigmatized minorities due to the broad realization of National Socialist policies of expulsion, exclusion from social life, murder and detention in concentration camps (see: Nuremberg Laws and laws resulting from resp. related to these).
Forced migrant labourers were obliged to contribute to statutory health insurance but could not count on their formally acquired right to benefits. Services delivered to the above mentioned groups was mostly below standard.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 05:31 am
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:
I will not waste any more of my time on someone who is not prepared to spend HIS time on preparing and actually composing his own post.
I totally agre, Lordy.
Generally, I would have ignored gunga's posts and this thread, too.
But since I've been in the university's library this morning and could use their intranet free of charge for additionally downloading some sources, for which you otherwise have to pay ... Wink
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 06:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Some more historic data about universal health care ... from a different country than Germany, namely Switzerland:
in 1880, there were 1.085 health Care founds/companies in Switzerland, with 209.000 members (plus family members). The Swiss Confederation had a population roughly ten times higher at that time.
Switzerland introduces the 'German-style' of health care insurance by law in 1911 and made it mandatory for most in 1920.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 06:50 am
@Rockhead,
The country does need medical reform, but not Obungacare.

The size of obungacare indicates to me that it is about power and not about health care. Likewise Mark Steyn notes that the job of director or head of public health has become the biggest govt. job in European countries which have public health care i.e. it would be a step upwards from PM or President or King or Grand Duke or anything else to head of health care. In other words, European health care is ultimate bureaucracy.

If I had the power to I would institute a sort of a basic health care reform which would be overwhelmingly simple and which would resemble the thing we're reading about in no way, shape, or manner. Key points would be:

1. Elimination of lawsuits against doctors and other medical providers. There would be a general fund to compensate victims of malpractice for actual damage and a non-inbred system for weeding out those guilty of malpractice. The non-inbred system would be a tribunal composed not just of oher doctors, but of plumbers, electricians, engineers, and everybody else as well.

2. Elimination of the artificial exclusivity of the medical system. In other words our medical schools could easily produce two or three times the number of doctors they do with no noticeable drop off in quality.

3. Elimination of the factors which drive the cost of medicines towards unaffordability. That would include both lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies and government agencies which force costs into the billions to develop any new drug. There should be no suing a pharmaceutical for any drug which has passed FDA approval and somewhere between thalidamide and what we have now, there should be a happy medium.

4. Elimination of the outmoded WW-II notion of triage in favor of a system which took some rational account of who pays for the system and who doesn't. The horror stories I keep reading about the middle-class guy with an injured child having to fill out forms for three hours while an endless procession of illegal immigrants just walks in and are seen, would end, as would any possibility of that child waiting three hours for treatment while people were being seen for heroin overdoses or other lifestyle issues.

All of those things would fall under the heading of what TR called "trust busting". There would also be some system for caring the truly indigent, but the need and cost would be far less than at present.

By far the biggest item is that first one. I don't know the exact numbers but if you add every cost involved in our present out-of-control lawyering, it has to be a major fraction if not more than half of our medical costs. The trial lawyers' guild being one of the two major pillars of financial support for the democrat party is the basic reason nobody is saying anything about that part of the problem.

Other than that, you almost have to have seen some of the problems close up to have any sort of a feel for them.

Item 2, this is what I saw in grad school some time ago, although I do not have any reason to think much has changed. In the school I attended, there appeared to be sixty or seventy first year med students walking around and all but one or two of them would have made perfectly good doctors, they were all very bright and highly motivated. The only way the school should have lost any of those kids was either they discovered they couldn't deal with the sight of blood in real life or six months later they changed their minds and went off to Hollywood to become actors or actresses; the school should never have lost more than ten percent of them. But they knew from day one that they were keeping 35% of that class.

That system says that you know several things about the guy working on your body: You know he's a survivor, and that's highly unlikely to be from being better qualified than 65% of the other students; You know he hasn't had enough sleep (he's doing his work and the work of that missing 65%); You know he's probably doing some sort of drugs to deal with the lack of sleep... One of my first steps as "health Tsar" or whatever would be to tell the medical schools that henceforth if they ever drop more than15% of an incoming class, they'll lose their accreditation.

Item 3. My father walks into a pharmacy in Switzerland with a bottle of pills he normally pays $50 for in Fla. and asks the pharmacist if he can fill it. "Why certainly sir!", fills the bottle of pills and says "That will be $3.50." Seeing that my father was standing there in a state of shock, the man says "Gee, I'm sorry, Mr. V., you see, we have socialized medicine in Switzerland and if you were a Swiss citizen and paid into the systemn, why I could sell you this bottle of pills for $1.50 but, since you're foreign and do not pay into the system I have to charge you the full price, certainly you can appreciate that."

The guy thought my father was in shock because he was charging him too MUCH... Clearly whatever needs to be done with drugs amounts to trust busting, and not extracting more money from the American people.

Item 4. A caller to the Chris Plant show (D.C./WMAL) the other morning, an ER nurse, noted that much of the costs which her hospital had to absorb, as do most hospitals, was the problem of people with no resources using the ER as their first and only point of contact to the medical profession. She said that there were gang members who were constantly coming in for repairs from bullet holes and knife damage and drug problems, that they could not legally turn any of those people away, and that there was zero possibility of ever collecting any money from any of them, and that the costs of that were gigantic.

Clearly throwing money at that problems is not going to help anything either. Again if I'm the "Medicine Tsar", those guys would be cared for, but not at the ER or at least not the part of the ER where normal people go, and they would not be first in line. Mostly they'd be dealing with medical students who needed the practice patching up knife and bullet damage.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 06:55 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Likewise Mark Steyn notes that the job of director or head of public health has become the biggest govt. job in European countries which have public health care i.e. it would be a step upwards from PM or President or King or Grand Duke or anything else to head of health care. In other words, European health care is ultimate bureaucracy.


Asinus asinorum in saecula saeculorum!
During all the history of health care system, we never had had "director" for it, but CEO's of the various companies (We still have more than 150 now).
And each of those companies has an elected (by its members) parliament.
(I admit, the latter was abandoned between 1937 and 1945.)

Public health directors here are civil servants (physicians by profession) at town/city/district level. They deal with a lot of things but not at all with health care in the sense of health insurance.

The two CEO's of my mandatory health insurer get 130.000 Euros per year.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Oct, 2013 08:50 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
The two CEO's of my mandatory health insurer get 130,000 Euros per year.
Actually, it's more: 145,000 Euro. The full list of all German mandatory health insurer's is >here<.

CEO's of the 45 private German health insurers earn between 600,000 and 3.1 million Euros.

In Vermont, Cigna reported paying its CEO $3,970,833 in total compensation last year, compared to $1,250,000 for the CEO at MVP and $587,184 at Blue Cross.

Quote:
The highest-paid executive at each of the "Big Five'' health insurers -- UnitedHealth Group, Aetna Inc., WellPoint Inc., Humana Inc. and Cigna Corp. -- made more than $8 million each in 2012, according to filings this spring with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Source

You and your source seem to be a lot more than just a bit confused about those data!!!
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2013 07:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Asinus asinorum in saecula saeculorum!


Even simple languages are enough like work that there's no real point in studying dead ones.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Oct, 2013 11:16 pm
@gungasnake,
One of the many points why you should learn old languages is that you can read the old sources written in those languages.
0 Replies
 
Abishai100
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Nov, 2013 12:55 am
@gungasnake,
When I think of this generic issue which does ironically have tremendous impact on social perspective, I think about how it applies to the management of prison healthcare.

How do criminals incarcerated in various prisons receive healthcare, and how do governments fund and invest intellectually in sanitary and medically viable incarceration and rehabilitation?

There are programs to assist the homeless, the mentally handicapped, and the politically under-represented, and discussions about universal healthcare should address the under-investigated subject of prison healthcare management. Such an address would, after all, approach the problems of government-managed human issues.

If I am to feel more confident about proposed universal healthcare ideas, I want to feel concurrently more informed and confident about how such ideas reach troubled populations such as incarceration masses. How else am I to appreciate a migration-muscle Hollywood (USA) movie such as "Coming to America" (1988)?
0 Replies
 
 

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