Sofia wrote:One of the threads I was alluding to was the Moslems Celebrate 911.
It begins discussing the planned celebration by some Muslims/Moslems (seems to be a question about the PC of one of those terms--) of 911.
A couple of members were concerned that paying attention to the celebration would bring out our baser urges to make broad brush statements about the entire religion...
Yet, here, the entire religion, Christianity, is broad-brushedly criticised, and all its' adherents lumped together as a band of illogical myth believers.
Why the discrimination? The 'popularity' argument is a dodge, IMO. Are you statisticians, or are your arguments against the mind-control aspect your legitimate beef with Christianity? Either all religion is criticised due to the 'mind-control' aspect, or it seems a cut and dried discrimination against one religion for some other reason.
The two threads Mesquite linked here were pushes for Islam. Yet, some here who regularly show up to add their negative opinions against Christianity didn't feel the need to show up there and voice similar criticisms.
I do think this is an issue that bears closer, and perhaps more introspective, attention.
Not to put too fine a point on it, and I've been guilty of digressing myself on many occasions, but the question of this particular thread is why people see a need to refute
christianity. I'm sure if a muslim were to ask a question of the same ilk regarding islam, there would be just as many articulate, and not so articulate responses.
When a major reason for bashing Christianity appeared to be the mind-control aspect, it lead me off in a different direction.
Excuse the digression.
Consider yourself excused. :wink:
dlowan wrote:Mesquite - I see no future in arguing over there.
Didn't know you were looking for a future.
dlowan wrote:I consider Islam fully as worthy of refutation as christianity. And would be doing so if people were pushing it here.
I do however understand your reluctance, given the lead-in of qkid's post. I see that Steve is back and may be refreshed enough to partake the challenge.
Why is it so important to refute Christianity?
onyxelle,
I just joined the Christian usergroup. Is this it? (Spirituality & Religion) I hope not. When I click "Usergroup", it takes me to an option to view information. I then see "Christian". When I click to view, all I see are the members and their profiles, but no messageboard.
Isn't there a place where I can go and relate strictly with people who are Christian? I'm looking for a wide variety of discussions, but away from the over-dose of dissention and Anti-Christ speech. When I joined Christians Usergroup, I thought I would be (at least for the most part) with Christian members.
I managed to make a post, but I really don't know exactly how I got to where I was when I did it, or if it was even where I wanted to be.
Can you help me, here?
BeaucoupLaVie
Re: Why is it so important to refute Christianity?
BeaucoupLaVie wrote:Isn't there a place where I can go and relate strictly with people who are Christian? I'm looking for a wide variety of discussions, but away from the over-dose of dissention and Anti-Christ speech. When I joined Christians Usergroup, I thought I would be (at least for the most part) with Christian members.
I recommend against that type of rhetoric ("Anti-Christ speech"). It gives Christians a bad name. i.e. too simple-minded to tolerate dissent, and needing to lash out with epithets.
mesquite wrote:dlowan wrote:Mesquite - I see no future in arguing over there.
Didn't know you were looking for a future.
dlowan wrote:I consider Islam fully as worthy of refutation as christianity. And would be doing so if people were pushing it here.
I do however understand your reluctance, given the lead-in of qkid's post. I see that Steve is back and may be refreshed enough to partake the challenge.
Aargh - changed my damned mind....
"Why is it so important to refute Christianity"
In answer to your question, "Why is it so important to refute Christianity", they haven't fervently determined by faith, to directly ask and receive wisdom and knowledge of Truth, which is freely given by the Holy Spirit. As a result, their ears haven't opened to hear, and their hearts have become hardened by remaining deceived. It is written in Proverbs 4:18 that the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day. Those in darkness, conversely, can't see, and have no idea that they're spiritually stumbling.
Shortly after I received my healing from God, and was made whole and delivered from 2 years-worth of torturing anxiety, challenges began popping up at every turn. It seemed like instead of things turning out better, problems were trying to increase, threatening those anxiety attacks to reappear. I pleaded to God, "What's going on, Father? Why have things been kicked up a notch? I'm following your commandments, so why is this happening?" Then the answer immediately came. He revealed to me that, in this kind of case, when the evil one feels like he's losing, he tries his best to cause extra problems in an attempt to throw you off guard, put you down, hoping that you'll react with fear and doubt your faith. Relieved and humored, I burst out laughing in the devils face. I informed him that I knew exactly what he was up to, he was wasting his time, and I immediately cast him behind me.
My point is this: As active believers, we walk in the light of Christ. As time passes, that light in the world shines brighter, while those in the dark get worse by fear (of the truth), because the dark is becoming darker. The source of that fear and darkness is the evil one. Ultimately, as Christians, we should remind ourselves that human beings are not the enemy, but the powers and principalities of darkness that influence them. He's getting desperate, folks. You can try to debate and convince him on the messageboards until the cows come home, but no amount of reasoning will suffice. And if you think he'll let you alone if you simply plead the adage "Live and let live", you're mistaken, for no man is an island. That's why I've just recently decided to resist the temptation to debate, anymore, and allow myself to risk becoming offended or victimized, because I don't want to get sucked back down into a pool of dissention, and place myself outside of God's protective realm. I want to keep cover under His great and almighty wings, so that I'll continue to remain in a position to receive His promised blessings, and therefore have what it takes to go out into the world and truly make a constructive difference, and achieve my highest destiny.
God is blessing me so much, and I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, and mind. I listen and respond when He speaks to my heart, and I go where He directs me, because I know that goodness and advantage will result from it. I'd never before known the meaning of pure joy and how to keep perfect love in my heart, until I made an honest commitment to hand my whole life over to Him. In spite of the common misconception, however, this does not mean that I should remain a mealy-mouthed footstool and refrain from speaking the truth, as the Holy Spirit directs. Jesus certainly spoke it, which is why some of the leaders of their religion sought to silence him.
Since worry and resentment is a sin, I refrain from it and forward all challenges to the Lord's "VoiceMail", so that He can handle the situation and make sure that I respond proactively. I know that Jesus has already suffered everything terrible for me, so that I am no longer burdened by it.
By the way, after pouring my heart out and extending spiritual inspiration and critical insight these past few days, I want to thank you for the help you've chosen to extend. It has served as a guidepost to show me where I belong and where I don't belong. I can tell where you stand, because you've gone out of your way to have everyone here welcome me accordingly...
Consequently, the time is right for me to part ways from contact via messageboard, because I'm being led in the direction of much study, as I am pressing forward, realizing my heart's desires and applied achievements.
I send you blessings.
Thank you and welcome aboard BeaucoupLaVie.
BeaucoupLaVie is a good example of why Christianity needs to be refuted. A blind faith that is saying that any who do not subscribe to it is blind.
So, if the problems go away, it's proof of God. And if the problems multiply, it's proof of God.
It's all right
It's all right
It's allllllllllllll right ! ! !
She moves in mysterious ways . . .
Re: "Why is it so important to refute Christianity"
BeaucoupLaVie wrote:In answer to your question, "Why is it so important to refute Christianity", they haven't fervently determined by faith, to directly ask and receive wisdom and knowledge of Truth, which is freely given by the Holy Spirit. As a result, their ears haven't opened to hear, and their hearts have become hardened by remaining deceived. It is written in Proverbs 4:18 that the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more unto the perfect day. Those in darkness, conversely, can't see, and have no idea that they're spiritually stumbling.
Shortly after I received my healing from God, and was made whole and delivered from 2 years-worth of torturing anxiety, challenges began popping up at every turn. It seemed like instead of things turning out better, problems were trying to increase, threatening those anxiety attacks to reappear. I pleaded to God, "What's going on, Father? Why have things been kicked up a notch? I'm following your commandments, so why is this happening?" Then the answer immediately came. He revealed to me that, in this kind of case, when the evil one feels like he's losing, he tries his best to cause extra problems in an attempt to throw you off guard, put you down, hoping that you'll react with fear and doubt your faith. Relieved and humored, I burst out laughing in the devils face. I informed him that I knew exactly what he was up to, he was wasting his time, and I immediately cast him behind me.
My point is this: As active believers, we walk in the light of Christ. As time passes, that light in the world shines brighter, while those in the dark get worse by fear (of the truth), because the dark is becoming darker. The source of that fear and darkness is the evil one. Ultimately, as Christians, we should remind ourselves that human beings are not the enemy, but the powers and principalities of darkness that influence them. He's getting desperate, folks. You can try to debate and convince him on the messageboards until the cows come home, but no amount of reasoning will suffice. And if you think he'll let you alone if you simply plead the adage "Live and let live", you're mistaken, for no man is an island. That's why I've just recently decided to resist the temptation to debate, anymore, and allow myself to risk becoming offended or victimized, because I don't want to get sucked back down into a pool of dissention, and place myself outside of God's protective realm. I want to keep cover under His great and almighty wings, so that I'll continue to remain in a position to receive His promised blessings, and therefore have what it takes to go out into the world and truly make a constructive difference, and achieve my highest destiny.
God is blessing me so much, and I love Jesus with all my heart, soul, and mind. I listen and respond when He speaks to my heart, and I go where He directs me, because I know that goodness and advantage will result from it. I'd never before known the meaning of pure joy and how to keep perfect love in my heart, until I made an honest commitment to hand my whole life over to Him. In spite of the common misconception, however, this does not mean that I should remain a mealy-mouthed footstool and refrain from speaking the truth, as the Holy Spirit directs. Jesus certainly spoke it, which is why some of the leaders of their religion sought to silence him.
Since worry and resentment is a sin, I refrain from it and forward all challenges to the Lord's "VoiceMail", so that He can handle the situation and make sure that I respond proactively. I know that Jesus has already suffered everything terrible for me, so that I am no longer burdened by it.
By the way, after pouring my heart out and extending spiritual inspiration and critical insight these past few days, I want to thank you for the help you've chosen to extend. It has served as a guidepost to show me where I belong and where I don't belong. I can tell where you stand, because you've gone out of your way to have everyone here welcome me accordingly...
Consequently, the time is right for me to part ways from contact via messageboard, because I'm being led in the direction of much study, as I am pressing forward, realizing my heart's desires and applied achievements.
I send you blessings.
I like how you offer nothing but a vague collection of psychological states to justify your belief. You then deflect all criticism of your beliefs to "Gods voice mail." Awesome post, godboy. You've earned the IronLionZion stamp of approval. No, really. I like you.
Had to post
I just had to post a response to BeaucoupLaVie as this person is a prime example of why Christianity needs to be refuted at all costs(although it will never happen). The main point of Beaucoups post is the most common thing I hear from every Christian I encounter,
"you, with your logic and reason, are just too lost or ungifted to SEE the real truth concerning the universe and its creator."
But what can lost mean in this context? Does it mean a lack of knowledge, at a loss for truth? If this is what it means, and this seems to be the only thing lost could mean in this instance, how does one become found without some form of rational information exchange?
But clearly Beaucoup doesn't wish to continue with debates as this just pulls him or her away from their ultimate destiny and mixes him or her up with evil spirits.
So the perfect situation for a Christian is to be able to tell others they are lost and then leave before the information that they have "found" can be examined. Sounds like a great racket to me.
This outright weakness of thought and philosophical gameplaying is exactly what needs to be attacked by thinking adults. Before a Christian can tell you that your lost they first have to tell you what it is they found and provide evidence for how it matches up with reality. But wait, that would require some form of rational thought process and logical argument construction, which as we know is not part of the Christian worldview. This is why it is so damaging!
In order for a Christian or any religionist to hold their views they must ignore reality, logic, and rationality around every turn. This is why intelligent rational persons become so flabbergasted when trying to debate with religious individuals. When refuting Christians we aren't just at odds with their idea that God was a Jew from the middle east but the idea that reality is reality. These people live in a world where demons and angels battle it out in a war where none can die since there immortal, a human being can be swallowed by a whale and then spit out later alive, and two fish in a basket can multiply indefinitely.
The fact of the matter is that these people are delusional and one delusion leads into many others. If one day my Christian neighbor thinks that demons are influencing his thoughts, what's to stop him from thinking that maybe my kids are demons and therefore need to be eliminated. Those not living in reality can make it quite difficult and dangerous for those smart enough to live within reality.
So like the numerous individuals committed to mental institutions in order to re-acquaint them with reality, religionists as well need all of our counseling or debating in order to bring them back down to earth and away from their lord of the rings living movie they call life.
This, in my opinion, is why it is necessary to refute Christians whenever we can.
truth
Achilles, I am in your ideological camp. But I want to make one cautionary statement. When you criticize Christians for their lack of rationality remember the famous rationalists, Decartes and Liebnitz were very rational (logical) yet they believed that they had proven the existence of a God. And that very rational, Spinoza, felt he could/did prove the validity of Pantheism. I agree with much of Spinoza's psychophysical monism but not because he rationally proved to me its validity. I tend to agree with it because of intuitive inclinatons. which may be seen as kind of faith. But I insist that it's not "blind" faith. It may not be "true" but it reflects "insight."
Watch that heel.
Although
JL, I completely understand where your coming from but I still have to disagree with regards to Christians, Spinoza, and Descartes and their use of "logic." My view of logic and reasoning is that it is completely irrational and unreasonable to hold fast to a claim without proper logical argumentation and evidence. This is exactly what Descartes and Spinoza are guilty of when then make large leaps with their thinking and argumentation.
To me true logic, with regards to a deity of some sort, can only lead one to the conclusion of "not enough information" at the present time. Any proofs for the existence of the supernatural must contain adequate verifiable data in order to qualify as a proper logical conclusion. With regards to God or the supernatural the only adequate evidence available to the individual today is possibly the instance of a personal experience, which doesn't take the claim very far since how can one persons non repeatable experience be useful to me in proving the existence of the said subject.
So basically when someone says "I believe the big bang was the origin of the universe" they must then confront and defend the various problems with their theory for it to be accepted. Currently the big bang theory along with creation myth are still not at the stage where someone should base their worldview around them or else they slip into the world of illogic. Logic would take in the available data concerning the big bang and spit out the conclusion "We just don't know yet." This is how true logic works and would work if these Christians examined what shabby evidence is available.
It is illogical to act upon or expect others to believe in something unless one has ample reason to do so, and logic and reasoning do not accept the concepts "I believe it because someone said so" or "I believe it because of a feeling I have" very easily. Although you can believe, just what are the roots of those beliefs and are those roots really strong enough to base your life and its actions on. Logic is the measuring device that will tell you if your firmly rested on pillars of jello and if so re-evaluation must take place.
So my basic point is that if Spinoza and Descartes had been truly rational they wouldn't have made the claims they did.
correction
As a note: I do think the big bang theory is advisable to accept but not as the origin of matter, it did happen, it just doesn't explain what the cosmos consisted of before the particles of matter imploded, or where the heck these particles came from.
Re: Had to post
Achilles wrote:"you, with your logic and reason, are just too lost or ungifted to SEE the real truth concerning the universe and its creator."
But what can lost mean in this context? Does it mean a lack of knowledge, at a loss for truth?
It just means that they are using the altogether too common ploy (on both sides of this issue) of making an appeal to the emperor's threads.
Quote:My view of logic and reasoning is that it is completely irrational and unreasonable to hold fast to a claim without proper logical argumentation and evidence. This is exactly what Descartes and Spinoza are guilty of when then make large leaps with their thinking and argumentation.
Take a bow Achilles. This is very true.
Many point to men of esteemed wisdom to try to say that their reasoning on a particular matter was not devoid of reason.
This is absurd.
Wide men can have brainfarts too. The individual's avgerage levels of reason mean little if the issue at hand is one in which they engage in mental flatulence.
truth
Achilles, I was just responding to what I thought was an over-emphasis on logic as the way to Truth. I see that you were referring to a kind of scientific rationality that includes the co-operation of logic AND empiricism. It took the British empiricists, Locke and Hume to introduce empiricism into the equation. It is the Christian's lack of empirical evidence that condemns his views to the charge of irrationality. Yet Berkely was considered an empiricist and logician, and look what non-sence he could generate (along with good stuff as well).
Craven, I do not think we can characterize the life works of Decartes and Liebnitz as mere "brain farts." Diarrhea perhaps.
SIDE BAR:
this is the first thread i've ever started that had so much participation.
It's my milestone thread.
Thank you all for visiting :-)
now back to the regularly scheduled programming...
