Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

Yeppers - been out...

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Mesquite - I see no future in arguing over there.

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I wish to comment on the 'quality' of the 'debate';

the act of faith removes the essential factor of incredulity from thought. One can believe many things, based hopfully on one's perception of evidence to support those beliefs. However, any position is maintained by a logical being, only in light of a degree of incredulity; that is the realization that evidence can be altered by a myriad of findings, developments, occurrances, etc.
When belief becomes faith, the mind closes to embrace the idea as something beyond sense, beyond logic, beyond evidential reasoning; and, therefore 'meaningless'.
Any ideas held by a closed mind are not worthy of consideration.
That is why this 'debate' is doomed to lead nowhere.

We must realize here that the ancient evolutionarily induced desire to compete and 'win' is active in the 'debate'. A debate will have a 'perceived' winner, and a 'perceived' loser; when the minds of the participants are closed these titles are applied by each to the other; no surprise there.

In a 'discussion', however, there is merely an exchange of ideas for the benefit of all participants, that they may assess these ideas, adopting those that are convincing - worthy, and discarding those that seem to offer no new insight.

Debate occurs between closed minds, with a monitoring 'jury' of spectators (always watching for a "kill"); while a discussion can take place in any setting, and may lead to an actual improvement in one's outlook on the universe.

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Absolutely, Bo. In a real debate, it's who makes the most convincing argument. Exactly the reason JFK whupped Nixon.

Resolved: Jesus was the Messiah. Then there is the con--
Jesus was simply a man who was a wise prophet.

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Letty darlin';
i think you may have sorta missed my point, just a little....
but that old enthusiasm is still invigourating!

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I did, Bo? My word. How could that have happened, I wonder? Razz

Resolved: BoGoWo is a man of great patience. Rebuttal? heh heh

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Er, he,he, i was 'dissing' debate in favour of 'discussion' as a means to enlightenment, as opposed to 'victory, victory, yay, yay, yay!'

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Gotcha, Bo. and Onyxelle got us all going.

I guess the best way to win is not to play, huh? Razz

Love your new signature--Would Jesus use mastercard?

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Sofia wrote:

OK, question:

If some here feel compelled to refute Christianity because of the 'mind-control' aspect, which accompanies religion--why do you protect Islam?

It is the fastest growing religion... and possesses the same 'mind-control' over its' adherents.

Is your worldview really so assbackwards that you think people who oppose Christianity because of its dogmatic nature generally defend Islam?

This is a serious question.

To the extent that people single out Christianity for criticism is the extent that Christianity is the dominant religion in our civilization (Western.) This makes it the most portentous target, for a number of reasons.

It is that simple.

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had to cut his up; no self control at all!!

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Derevon wrote:

Now you're confusing belief with Faith. When I talk about Faith, I'm referring to some kind of mystical insight, that I can feel is from God himself in a way that I'm utterly at loss to explain. This kind of Faith doesn't deal in particulars. It doesn't tell me to invade Iraq, or that a certain book is right; it makes me perceive the reality of God, and his loving nature in a very tangible (to me), but yet ineffable way. I really don't believe anything could make me disprove of the reality of that Faith.

Thank you for admitting to the non-rational nature of your belief.

This allows us all to avoid extended pseudo-debate with you, because you have already admitted that your beliefs are immune to logic and reason.

There is really nothing that I can do about the fact that you have trained yourself to intrepret your own inner psychological states withen the religious context provided by your society.

I suggest you check out the book of mormon. It relies heavily on subjective inner psychological experiances as a criteria to validate belief. Maybe marry a cousin, too.

I'd just like to point out that the faith you describe has been a central part of every religion ever. So, to the extent that it validates your Christianity is the same extent it validates EVERY RELIGION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

Faith, in the sense you seem to be using it, is merely a euphemism for delusion.

Toodles.

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It is of course your prerogative to ascribe my experiences to self-delusion. I don't have a problem with that.

I haven't said that my beliefs are immune to logic and reason. All I said is that I didn't think anything could disprove of the reality of what I've perceived through faith (revelatory), i.e. God's loving nature, as it has a higher sense of reality to me, and that this faith is separate from logical deduction and reasoning.

What I meant by these statements was that reason and this faith I'm talking about are so different that they are incomparable. The faith I'm talking about is more like extrasensory perception. If we compare it to our bodily senses, it's obvious that what we see, smell, hear and feel exist separately from our understanding. It's perfectly possible to see or hear things which we don't understand. The reason why I claimed that I don't believe anything could disprove of my faith is that I could no more disbelieve in it than I could disbelieve in my own senses, as my faith to me appears more real than any of these.

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IronLionZion wrote:

Sofia wrote:
OK, question:

If some here feel compelled to refute Christianity because of the 'mind-control' aspect, which accompanies religion--why do you protect Islam?

It is the fastest growing religion... and possesses the same 'mind-control' over its' adherents.

Is your worldview really so assbackwards that you think people who oppose Christianity because of its dogmatic nature generally defend Islam?

This is a serious question.

To the extent that people single out Christianity for criticism is the extent that Christianity is the dominant religion in our civilization (Western.) This makes it the most portentous target, for a number of reasons.

It is that simple.

Mine was a rather tame question, based on personal experiences here. Your unnecessarily rude assumption above is incorrect.

I've witnessed countless threads and posts that decry and criticise Christianity. And, I've seen some who do this defend criticisms of Islam. And, it was to them my question was posed.
----------
I think it would be helpful if I were to bring back some examples for clarification.

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I know what you're talking about. It is responses to generalizations about Islam and culture.

e.g.

"Islam is evil, look at the the terrorists"

"That is just a small portion of Islam, don't judge it all by that"

Sofia's asking a valid question, do Christians enjoy the same protection against generalization of the actions of their extremists?

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One of the threads I was alluding to was the Moslems Celebrate 911.

It begins discussing the planned celebration by some Muslims/Moslems (seems to be a question about the PC of one of those terms--) of 911.

A couple of members were concerned that paying attention to the celebration would bring out our baser urges to make broad brush statements about the entire religion...

Yet, here, the entire religion, Christianity, is broad-brushedly criticised, and all its' adherents lumped together as a band of illogical myth believers.

Why the discrimination? The 'popularity' argument is a dodge, IMO. Are you statisticians, or are your arguments against the mind-control aspect your legitimate beef with Christianity? Either all religion is criticised due to the 'mind-control' aspect, or it seems a cut and dried discrimination against one religion for some other reason.

The two threads Mesquite linked here were pushes for Islam. Yet, some here who regularly show up to add their negative opinions against Christianity didn't feel the need to show up there and voice similar criticisms.

I do think this is an issue that bears closer, and perhaps more introspective, attention.

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Damn.

Craven said it in three sentences.

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Depends.

In a predominantly christian background culture, like here in Oz, personally, I probably wouldn't bother so much - though I have defended christians against stupid attacks here, and elsewhere. This is so because they are less likely to suffer violence and prejudice and crap when some misbehave than Muslims are.

If I was talking to a bunch of muslims who were crapping on christians because of their extremists, I'd be rebutting the muslims.

I hold both religions in similar dis-esteem. Doesn't mean i think either has a lien on nutters.

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My position is that, yes, Christians enjoy the same protection against generalizations of them as a group based on the actions of the extremists.

I still fault Islam and Christianity as religions for fostering the type of thought that leads to said actions.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

Sofia's asking a valid question, do Christians enjoy the same protection against generalization of the actions of their extremists?

In a word: yes.

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This thread asks why people react a certain to christianity, and not to Islam. Earlier in this thread, i asked what distinction one could make between a Muslim fanatic with a bomb and a Holy Roller fanatic with a bomb--i see none. No, i don't go to the threads about Islam--i showed up in one a long time ago, the one about "fastest growing religion," and, having did a web search on the subject, disputed the allegation.

But it is about "popularity," which is not a dodge. There is not proximate threat of fundamentalist Muslims taking control of important aspects of governance. There is such a threat in this country from Christians. In most religious threads, i have pointed out the general principle involved is an unquestioning acceptance of that which is unknown and likely to be unknowable. I have also pointed out in this thread that this is not a part of my everyday life, and it only comes up here. I avoid the Muslim threads because in 2001, while i still foolishly went to AFUZZ (where there used to be great political threads, with Mac, and Seydlitz and a host of others), the Muslim bashing was just awful. It is, in fact the principle reason i left that site never to return.

I rather doubt it ever gets as bad here as it did there. But i still have no reason to go into these issues with proponents of Islam, who do not represent a potential threat to my personal liberties. Christians do.

But, on the whole, when it comes to organized religion, i offer equal opportunity contempt.

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Why is it so important to refute Christianity?

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