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Do we really have to take military action to Syria?

 
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 10:02 am
@cicerone imposter,
No we shouldent go it alone. And we should give the Russian government a chance to control the Syrian gas weapons with the provision that another gas attack by the government will be answered by a massive strike on their military. But not boots on the ground without many countries joining with us. and none if we can find another way. I get a kick out of some of the posters on this forem who on one site say if Obama goes in he is wrong and go to a different site and say if he dosent go in he is wrong. I sometime get the feeling that they are paid political provocateurs. Not you CI but you know the ones I am talking about.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 10:38 am
@RABEL222,
The latest news from Reuters.
Quote:
Reuters 1 hour ago
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia has given the United States its plan for placing Syria's chemical weapons arsenal under international control and intends to discuss it on Thursday in Geneva, the Interfax news agency cited a Russian source as saying on Wednesday.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who is to meet Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Geneva, said on Tuesday that Lavrov was expected to send him Russia's proposals for review by the Obama administration.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 10:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
We can't be the conscience and world police forever.


There's no conscience involved. It is power politics. A world police is a question of exhaustion.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 11:31 am
@spendius,
spendi, Where have you been? It's about the use of biological weapons which was determined to be illegal by the Geneva Convention and the UN. Not acting on the prohibition has to do with conscience. What "power" are you talking about? The US has enough nukes to remove Syria from the world map.

The UK voted against any action against Syria which is in direct conflict with their support of BWC. Was that because of "power?"

Quote:
The Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on their Destruction (usually referred to as the Biological Weapons Convention, abbreviation: BWC, or Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention, abbreviation: BTWC) was the first multilateral disarmament treaty banning the production of an entire category of weapons.[1]
The Convention was the result of prolonged efforts by the international community to establish a new instrument that would supplement the 1925 Geneva Protocol. The Geneva Protocol prohibited use but not possession or development of chemical and biological weapons.
A draft of the BWC, submitted by the British[2] was opened for signature on April 10, 1972 and entered into force March 26, 1975 when twenty-two governments had deposited their instruments of ratification. It currently commits the 170 states which are party to it to prohibit the development, production, and stockpiling of biological and toxin weapons. However, the absence of any formal verification regime to monitor compliance has limited the effectiveness of the Convention. As of April 2013, an additional 10 states have signed the BWC but have yet to ratify the treaty.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 12:25 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

There's an apocalyptic sense to this, Syria is named as the place of Armageddon in the Koran. Syria is specifically mentioned as Al Sham in the Koran. Lots of Islamist fighters believe these are the last days and that jihad in Al Sham is an obligation. The town where the chemical weapons attack took place is specifically mentioned.

There's also a lot of apocalyptic chat coming out of certain types of Christian as well.


I just told Henny Penny that the sky is not falling. Whatever transpires, life will go on without missing a step, so to speak, in most bergs. The world is just so small for those that are news junkies. I have total faith in the strength of the U.S.A. That being, perhaps, a holdover from the atrocities of the Thirty Year's War. Some people don't forget bad times, and won't allow history to repeat itself. Just my opinion.

revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 12:27 pm
UN Resolution Talks Begin On Syria Chemical Arms

Quote:
PARIS -- Tense negotiations have begun on a proposed U.N. resolution that would put Syria's chemical weapons under international control and end a diplomatic stalemate over a deadly Aug. 21 poison gas attack, a French official said Wednesday.

The plan for Syria to relinquish its chemical weapons, initiated by Russia, appeared to ease the crisis over looming Western strikes against Bashar Assad's regime in Damascus, only to open up new potential for impasse as Moscow rejected U.S. and French demands for a binding U.N. resolution with "very severe consequences" for non-compliance.

The French official close to the president, who spoke on condition of anonymity because negotiations remained sensitive, said Russia objected not only to making the resolution militarily enforceable, but also to blaming the Aug. 21 attack on the Syrian government and demanding that those responsible be taken before an international criminal court.

Wary of falling into what the French foreign minister called "a trap," Paris and Washington are pushing for a U.N. Security Council resolution to verify Syria's disarmament. Russia, a close ally of Syrian leader Bashar Assad and the regime's chief patron on the international stage, dismissed France's proposal on Tuesday.

Alexandre Orlov, Russia's ambassador to France, did not answer directly when asked Wednesday about specific Russian objections.

"We think that the proposal came together quickly, in haste," Orlov told France Inter radio. "It's sure there are chemical weapons on both sides. The important thing is to forbid them, put them under international control. Then we will see who uses them."


I really don't think Russia or Assad are serious but at least this buys us time to wait for the UN report on Syria's chemical weapons use and for a vote to happen, Russia and China will block anything meaningful and then, perhaps more countries will see that they will have to go outside the UN in order to do anything meaningful. In other words, let it "play out."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 12:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
spendi, Where have you been?


I have been studying evolution. All's fair in love and war.

Where have you been you silly old evolutionist? Evolution doesn't do Geneva Conventions. If the fittest could stop the rest getting as fit as they are we would still be in the notorious ooze.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:03 pm
@spendius,
You're totally confused - as usual. We're talking about Syria, not evolutionary theory.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 03:33 pm
@Foofie,
I thought you'd pick up the wrong end of the stick as usual Fluff.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:09 pm
What a debacle.

Obama shoots off his mouth about redlines and looks like a dithering weakling the first time it's crossed which only assured that it would be crossed again and more blatantly.

Now that it's been crossed a second time he looks even more the feckless amateur.

Putin has only too happily offered him a way out of his self-imposed pickle and he is sure to take it, even though it will never amount to anything. Whatever plan is proposed, and agreed upon, Assad will maintain an arsenal of chemical weapons...probably of the same size he has now, and he will use it again if he feels he has to. Obama has been tested and found wanting.

Assad has used chem weapons at least twice despite the warning.

He knows there is virtually no way that the US (or the West for that matter) will intervene in his war against his people.

Putin comes out looking the Peacemaker despite his backing Assad and blocking all efforts to rein him in.

Iran knows that the US has no stomach for confrontation and will merrily proceed to secure a nuclear weapon capability unless the Israelis have something to say about it.

The Israeli's will read this the same way as Iran, and will realize that despite all the blather they hear from DC, if there's a chance Iran will go nuclear in the next three years, they are the only ones who can stop them.

If the right policy is non-intervention in Syria, then the president should be skilled enough to not draw red lines because his ego compels him to appear the tough guy.

This is how wars happen, and while we probably won't become involved in Syria's, we are opening the door to a worse one from which it will much more difficult to shrink.

And yet the Faithful see no problem with the conduct of the object of their adoration. Unbelievably, some actually think his bumbling is political genius

To be fair, his fiercest critics have also responded feverishly to assert that while this seems like a foreign policy failure, it really is an uber-clever way for Obama to achieve his goal of making the US a minor player on the world stage.

We are well and truly effed.




peter jeffrey cobb
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:28 pm
@peter jeffrey cobb,
I like what Eleanor Roosevelt had to say about wars .
I can not believe that war is the best solution. No one won the last war, and no one will win the next war.
(Eleanor Roosevelt)



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Perhaps in His wisdom the Almighty is trying to show us that a leader may chart the way, may point out the road to lasting peace, but that many leaders and many peoples must do the building.
(Eleanor Roosevelt)



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It isn't enough to talk about peace. One must believe in it. And it isn't enough to believe in it. One must work at it.
(Eleanor Roosevelt)



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An economic policy which does not consider the well-being of all will not serve the purposes of peace and the growth of well-being among the people of all nations.
(Eleanor Roosevelt)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:28 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You're totally wrong. Nobody knew that Russia would intervene. They have trumped everything at the UN, and nobody expected Russia to help solve this quagmire. If they do, that would be the best outcome for this problem.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 04:42 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Where did I write that anyone expected Putin to pull his stunt? I might feel better about Peewee Obama if he had.

They are not going to "solve this problem."

They are going to do what is in their perceived best interests, and making Obama look feckless and prevent US intervention is.

The "problem" Obama wants them to solve is his ass being stuck in the corner in which he has painted it. If you think they will solve "the problem" of Assad's using chem weapons, you are a bigger fool than I ever thought.

See CI, Putin has won you over.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 05:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
remember CI, the response of all the righties is , no matter what the incident, MAKE BELIEVE THAT OBAMA IS THE CAUSE .

Doing whats best for the country is unimportant for them.
In the last week, Ive seen the right side o the aisle tripping over themselves to make up new conditions for undermining the country. SAD really.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 05:32 pm
@farmerman,
I'm not worried one iota about the republicans/tea party. I've written them off a long time ago. Trying to make sense of their bull **** isn't worth my time or effort.

They're stilling working to repeal ObamaCare. The very health plan the republicans created.

From treehugger.com.
Quote:
Karl Rove was right. They do create their own realities. We are living in one. The members of the Republican Party did not just decide individually that the individual mandate in the Affordable Care Act was unconstitutional. As many people have noted, the mandate was originally a Republican idea! Many Republicans once (and probably still do) thought it was a smart policy and one of the only ways to get freeloaders to contribute to a health care system. They did not all coincidentally decide to oppose it. But the decision to oppose it was made. Republicans got in line and cooperated to create this dynamic in the US.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 09:15 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

remember CI, the response of all the righties is , no matter what the incident, MAKE BELIEVE THAT OBAMA IS THE CAUSE .

Doing whats best for the country is unimportant for them.
In the last week, Ive seen the right side o the aisle tripping over themselves to make up new conditions for undermining the country. SAD really.


And in this case, Obama is not the cause?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Sep, 2013 09:27 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Cause of what?
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 01:22 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Absolute tosh Finn. You're just saying this because you don't like Obama. You have no proof that Assad will keep his chemical weapons at all. The reverse is true, they'll make damn sure they get all of them. This is a far better result than Putin saying he'll simply replace everything hit in a raid, and accelerating the arms race.

Obama is not being weak, he's showing reason and judgement. We never would have the decommissioning offer if it weren't for his tactics. Bush never once showed strength, he showed he was a trigger happy moron. He also reacted exactly how Al Qaida wanted him to react and flushed America's reputation down the shitter in the process.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 01:36 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Obama is not being weak, he's showing reason and judgement
giving a speech to rally the troops when he has not decided what he wants to do is poor judgement...the guy constantly shows himself to be an incompetent leader. he should have stuck to writing books about leadership theory, or teaching it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 02:08 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
President Barack Obama's speech to the nation on Tuesday was no more than an update on the diplomatic mess he has gotten himself into over Syria, former National Security official Barry Pavel told Deutsche Welle.

Barry Pavel is vice president and director of the Brent Scowcroft Center on International Security of The Atlantic Council, and was formerly director of defense policy and strategy on the National Security Council under President Obama.
http://www.dw.de/obama-has-boxed-us-into-a-corner/a-17081637

yeppers!
0 Replies
 
 

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