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The Tea Party and the Muslim Brotherhood

 
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:28 am
The following is a pretty good article, to my mind, as it kinda makes sense of Egypt voting for Morsi and then turning against them. I really don't think the military is anymore popular than the Brotherhood. I think Thomas you have got it nailed pretty tight.

Egypt crisis: How the euphoria turned to tragedy

Quote:
In the presidential election last year, the choice in the final round was between the Brotherhood's Mohammed Morsi and a former air force general who had been Mr Mubarak's last prime minister.

Getting a candidate into the race, let alone to the winning post, was too much for the fractious, disorganised revolutionaries of Tahrir Square.

Broken promises

When Mr Morsi won the presidency, he promised to govern for all Egyptians. But he did not.

The Muslim Brotherhood had worked for power for more than 80 years. It was determined to seize its chance to reshape Egypt into the way it wanted.

Mr Morsi, the public face of the Muslim Brotherhood's top political leadership, behaved as if it had an overwhelming mandate to transform Egypt into a much more Islamist state.

Many Egyptians are pious Muslims, but that did not automatically mean they shared the Brotherhood's austere vision of the future.

To make matters worse, the Morsi administration was not very competent. It could not keep its promises about reinvigorating the economy.

By the end of June this year, the discontent that had built in Egypt burst out into the huge protest marches that gave the military its chance to remove President Morsi.

The move was very popular with almost everyone, except the Muslim Brotherhood.

Even internationally respected liberal democrats, like the Nobel Peace Prize winner Mohamed ElBaradei welcomed what had happened.

Mr ElBaradei told me that the army had not carried out a coup d'etat.

Instead, by popular demand, it would give the Egyptian people the chance to reboot their democracy.

Different views

It has not worked out that way, even though the military and its commander, Gen Abdul Fattah al-Sisi, have plenty of backing for what they are doing.

So far it looks more like an attempt to revive the security state that sustained Mr Mubarak for 30 years.

Once again, Egypt is being governed under an emergency law that gives the state draconian powers.

Mr ElBaradei has resigned as vice-president from the government the military installed.

Hundreds are dead.

The Muslim Brotherhood and the military - and both sets of their sympathisers - both believe that the future of Egypt's next generation is at stake, and both are right. But their views of the future are very different.

The best way forward would be for all sides in Egypt - and there is a range of opinion, not two monolithic blocs - to agree a way to get people into work and to make social peace.

But that is not happening. The argument is being fought out on the streets. And that is a tragedy.

0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:32 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
The US Tea Party is basically the populist wing of the GOP; the slammite brohood is a bunch of barbarians.


Forgive me if I don't see the difference between the two.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:35 am
@maxdancona,
There is none, Gunga makes this point every time he posts.

The Moslem Brotherhood aren't a bunch of racists though.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:45 am
http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/is-this-real-reason-for-brotherhood-crackdown/

Quote:

TEL AVIV – The Egyptian army launched their crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood after evidence indicated the Islamist group was creating its own military and terrorist apparatus, a high-ranking Egyptian intelligence official told WND.

The official further stated al-Qaida-linked jihadists have been making their way to the Sinai Peninsula as part of a Muslim Brotherhood effort to accumulate its own independent force.

That force was being coordinated with the Brotherhood’s main political and militant ally, the Jihadi Salafist group, the official said. Yesterday, Egyptian police arrested Mohammed al-Zawahiri, leader of the Salafist group and brother to al-Qaida chief Ayman al-Zawahiri.

The Egyptian intelligence official further stated Turkey has been aiding the Muslim Brotherhood military and terrorist efforts, including with financial support funneled through international firms.

Turkey has also been working with Hamas to aid the so-called rebels in their fight against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s regime, according to informed Middle Eastern security officials previously speaking to WND.

The Gazan group was specifically asked to help the rebels construct underground tunnels and to advise the jihadist-saturated rebels on adopting some of the tools Hamas previously put to use to confront Israel.

The Egyptian intelligence official confirmed to WND the Hamas-Turkish cooperation and claimed it extended to the Muslim Brotherhood, which asked Hamas to aid in their efforts to build a military wing.

The information may give a larger context for the Egyptian military’s actions and to the ramifications of President Obama’s response to the spiraling violence.

“We appreciate the complexity of the situation,” Obama said in his comments on the situation last week. “The United States strongly condemns the steps that have been taken by Egypt’s interim government and security forces. We deplore violence against civilians. We support universal rights essential to human dignity, including the right to peaceful protest.”

Obama further canceled a U.S.-Egypt biannual joint military exercise, which was scheduled for next month, and warned the U.S. government could reassess financial aid to the Egyptian military.

Meanwhile, Egyptian authorities announced they are considering disbanding the Muslim Brotherhood group as the army continues to break up Brotherhood protest actions across the country.

Those actions have reportedly included attacking churches, Christian homes and businesses.


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/is-this-real-reason-for-brotherhood-crackdown/#O9tJQJ4YlyKtQYgQ.99
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 08:24 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I think the military is getting worried about western criticism of the crackdown and is having some kind of media propaganda war targeting a western audience.

While I agree that nothing justifies the massacres of Muslim-Brotherhood protesters by the military, I think the Western audience is the least of the military's concern. For one thing, the oil monarchies of the Gulf are already lining up for economic and military support in case the West imposes sanctions. That degrades the threat of such sanctions to the equivalent of a water pistol. Also, the Egyptian military must have observed president Obama's habit of drawing lines in the sand, watching the other side cross it, and then not following through. Perhaps everything is different this time, but it's not the way I would bet if I was an Egyptian general. And by all appearances, the Egyptian generals aren't betting this way, either.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 08:32 am

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/08/16/egypts-army-crosses-the-rubicon/

Quote:
....Two years ago, the United States celebrated an Arab Spring that began with the overthrow in Tunis and Cairo of dictators who had been our loyal allies. We then became the champions of free elections in Egypt, as we had been the champions of free elections in Palestine, until Hamas swept the board in Gaza.

When half of Egypt voted for the Brotherhood and a fourth for the more militant Salafis, we accepted the results and pledged to work with President Mohammed Morsi.

But Morsi failed as badly as Hosni Mubarak. So, when millions massed in Cairo’s streets to demand Morsi’s overthrow, we signaled our approval for a military coup.

Then, when Gen. Abdel Fattah el-Sisi seized power, imprisoned Morsi, jailed Brotherhood leaders and installed a puppet government, we refused to call it a coup.

Secretary of State John Kerry provided the comic relief by assuring us that the Egyptian army was “restoring democracy.”

For two years, America has been loyal to no one, and consistent in nothing. Thus, Egypt’s soldiers decided to do what they had to do to save their country. And if new elections are likely to produce a regime that threatens their Egypt, they will dump the democratic procedures rather than lose Egypt to the Brotherhood.

They will comply with our wishes to the extent that they do not imperil what the Egyptian army regards as vital. Gen. Sisi either did not believe we would cut off his military aid, or was willing to take that risk when he gave the order to fire on the protesters.

He read the Americans right. What do we do now?


Pure and total fecklessness, US foreign policy is basically dead.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 08:34 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Also, the Egyptian military must have observed president Obama's habit of drawing lines in the sand, watching the other side cross it, and then not following through. Perhaps everything is different this time, but it's not the way I would bet if I was an Egyptian general. And by all appearances, the Egyptian generals aren't betting this way, either.


Well, that is true at least. Take Syria for an example. I don't know why he draws lines in the sand unless he knows he can back them up for sure.

In any case, if they don't need our money then I wish we would quit sending it to them as we do need it. From all accounts hardly any of it went to the poor in Egypt so their status won't change if we quit sending them money.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 08:47 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
From all accounts hardly any of it went to the poor in Egypt so their status won't change if we quit sending them money.
The US (money) aid is/has been mainly Military aid—which comes through a funding stream known as Foreign military financing, steady at about $1.3 billion since 1987. (The aid has included fighter jets, tanks, armored personnel carriers, attack helicopters, anti-aircraft missiles, and surveillance aircraft.)

U.S. economic aid to Egypt has slumped from $815 million in 1998 to about $250 million in 2011.

Sources and more here.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:01 am
Do you think if Mubarak is released he will be back in power and the people who once wanted him will welcome him back?

Mubarak’s lawyer says the former leader could be released as violence spirals in Egypt

Quote:
CAIRO — Longtime Egyptian strongman Hosni Mubarak could walk out of jail within days, court officials and his lawyer said Monday, injecting a volatile new element into the political crisis that has engulfed the world’s largest Arab country.

The former dictator, who was overthrown by a popular revolution in 2011, still faces charges in connection with the killing of hundreds of protesters in that Arab Spring revolt. But he has been granted bond in that case, and a judge on Monday said he should be able to leave prison as he awaits another trial on corruption charges.

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:06 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
In any case, if they don't need our money then I wish we would quit sending it to them as we do need it.

Perhaps because the US is your country, you appear to be under the illusion that it is the one in charge. It is not. The US needs Egypt's cooperation more than Egypt needs the US. It has strong competitors for the generals' cooperation, and will keep sending checks to Egypt simply because it's in a position of weakness compared to both the generals and its competitors for their favor.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:27 am
@Thomas,
According to a report on the radio this morning, they're getting $1,300,000,000 per annum. That's chickenfeed, we waste more money than that on scams by defense contractors every year.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:28 am
maxdancona wrote:
The Tea Party in the US stands for traditional religious values.

Thomas wrote:
Not really. The Ayn-Randian wing of the tea party, which may well be the dominant faction, isn't that big on religion at all.

maxdancona wrote:
I think you are wrong about that Thomas. Most of the Ayn-Randian wing of the tea party are staunchly religious.

Thomas wrote:
Quite possible that I'm wrong. For the most part I have given up trying to understand the Tea Party. This way lies madness.

I didn't want to leave this sub-thread dangling unresolved and googled around to see if the Tea Party's religious views depart in any substantial way from the Republican party at large. I didn't find any. And for what it's worth, Wikipedia's entry doesn't mention anything about religion. It's all about cutting taxes, cutting spending, and derailing Obamacare.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:30 am
@Setanta,
And, nearly all of that money comes back to US defense contractors who help keep our unemployment numbers below 10%. Egypt will use someone's money to buy someone's tanks. In return they will give preferential treatment to someone re access to landing bases and passage through the Suez Canal. Who's it going to be?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:31 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
According to report on the radio this morning, they're getting $1,300,000,000 per annum. That's chickenfeed, we waste more money than that on scams by defense contractors every year.

Well, at least the $1.3 billion won't end up in the wrong hands. Imagine what would happen if they gave it to poor-neighborhood schools so they could teach more children to read. Now that would be fiscally irresponsible!
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:36 am
@Thomas,
There are reports that Saudi Arabia will make good all cuts in aid.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 09:39 am
@Thomas,
Perhaps Egypt might not need dollar aid but it would seem it would need contracts in Pentagon for US weapons.

Quote:
Since President Obama scrapped the U.S. military’s role in September’s Bright Star joint training exercise with the Egyptian military last Thursday because of the government’s killing of close to 1,000 protesters, attention has shifted to his refusal to cut off the $1.3 billion in military aid Washington gives to Cairo each year.

We’re not talking pocket change here. A June congressional assessment suggested that “U.S. military aid covers as much as 80% of the Defense Ministry’s weapons procurement costs.”

It’s probably fair to think of the continuing aid as an IV – but instead of an intravenous drip delivering life-saving medicine to an ailing patient, it’s closer to an influence vaccination designed to keep Egypt’s generals under some – increasingly limited – sway of the U.S. government.

But, as with all medicines, there are side effects.


We’ve given them enough weapons to do all the shooting for themselves,” Ross Douhat writes in a Sunday’s New York Times column advocating an end to the American IV. “Which means our patronage has created a different kind of problem: Even absent an actual military footprint, we’ve been dragged permanently into Egypt’s domestic politics, where we’re seen — for understandable reasons as well as conspiratorial ones — as the real power behind whatever the state decides to do.”

The issue came up on the Sunday talk shows. “There are no good choices in Egypt,” Rep. Peter King, the New York Republican who chairs the intelligence committee, said on Fox News. “The fact is there’s no good guys there.” But the need for the U.S. to maintain influence in the Arab world’s most populous nation means “we certainly shouldn’t cut off all aid.”

U.S. military dollars grease the Pentagon’s own military operations: U.S. warplanes can fly through Egyptian air space (as some 2,000 did last year), and U.S. warships can move to the head of the line to transit Egypt’s Suez Canal, something it does 40 times annually (eliminating a two-week, 6,000-miles trek around Africa). Both have been critical U.S. time-and-money savers during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The annual funding rewards Egypt for signing the 1978 Camp David accords, championed by President Carter, signaling peace with Israel.

The Pentagon’s contract database contains 13,500 entries that include “Egypt,” which suggests how deeply Washington is involved in supplying the Egyptian military with some of its key weapons, including M-1 tanks and F-16 fighters. But Egypt has also been buying, with U.S. taxpayers’ help, AH-64 attack helicopters, Harpoon and SLAM missiles, and missile-firing coastal-patrol boats.

But the aid – and 17 importuning phone calls between Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and General Abdel Fattah al-Sisi, the Egyptian defense minister and U.S.-trained officer – failed to still the Egyptian military’s swiftly-appointed rounds. Sisi and his comrades overthrew Mohamed Morsi on July 3, and believe the U.S. doesn’t take the Islamic threat to Egypt seriously enough.


There’s no doubt the U.S.-Egyptian military relationship is fraying. “The Department of Defense will continue to maintain a military relationship with Egypt,” Hagel said last week, “but I made it clear that the violence and inadequate steps towards reconciliation are putting important elements of our longstanding defense cooperation at risk.”

Sisi is free to ignore U.S. entreaties: the Gulf states, led by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, have poured billions in aid to Egypt in recent years. But even those cash-rich sheikdoms have a ways to go before eclipsing the U.S. investment in Egypt: between 1948 and 2011, Washington sent Egypt a total of $73 billion, according to a recent accounting – including $1.3 billion in military aid annually since 1987 (as well as $45 million in International Military Education and Training — IMET — funds).

http://timeswampland.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/screen-shot-2013-08-18-at-2-42-17-pm.png?w=753

Much of that has gone to supplying the Egyptian army with General Dynamics M-1 tanks under a co-production deal that is now 25 years old. “Egypt plans to acquire a total of 1,200 tanks,” that June congressional report noted. “Under the terms of the program, a percentage of the tank’s components are manufactured in Egypt at a facility on the outskirts of Cairo and the remaining parts are produced in the United States and then shipped to Egypt for final assembly.”

Then, in 2009, the U.S. agreed to sell 20 Lockheed Martin F-16s to Egypt for $2.5 billion.

As if the free money weren’t enough, the U.S. also offers Egypt some defense-hardware sweeteners, the June Congressional Research Report notes:

Since 2000, Egypt’s [U.S.-funded] Foreign Military Financing funds have been deposited in an interest-bearing account in the Federal Reserve Bank of New York and have remained there until they are obligated.

– Most significantly, Egypt is allowed to set aside Foreign Military Financing funds for current-year payments only, rather than set aside the full amount needed to meet the full cost of multi-year purchases. Cash flow financing allows Egypt to negotiate major arms purchases with U.S. defense suppliers.


Last month, the U.S. delayed the delivery of four of those F-16 fighters to Egypt as an expression of its displeasure with the military takeover (but none in the Obama Administration dared call it what it was – a coup – because such a label would lead to an automatic cutoff of military support).

Obama took that action a week before the Pentagon’s Aug. 1 announcement that it was awarding contracts of up to $250 million to U.S. firms to work with the Pentagon’s Center for Civil-Military Relations.

“Based at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif., the Center for Civil-Military Relations was originally established in 1994 to assist newly emerging democracies in addressing the civil-military challenges of the post-Cold War world,” the center’s website says. “In the nearly two decades since its founding, CCMR has evolved to partner with a much broader range of regions and countries.”

Unfortunately, Egypt was identified in the announcement as only a “potential” customer for the “training of foreign troops or education of officials.”


source

When we get out of the war with Afghanistan, perhaps we won't need to keep the Egyptian military in charity with us so much. I don't know really, this is all kind of beyond me. My only point is what I started off saying which is the military mass killings is not justified.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 10:42 am
Last week on FoxNews Huckabee had a show in which he was discussing kicking out the Libertarians from the Republican Party. His guests were social conservative Repubs who were saying things along the lines of, “well, the Libertarians help the Party win elections.”

This coalition that Ronald Regan brought together in the 80’s is coming apart at the seams, as it were.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 11:09 am
Egypt army crackdown splits Morsi opponents

0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 01:38 pm
@revelette,
Could it be that he realizes that the U S citizens are damn tired of being involved in every little war on the face of the earth. If it is so important that this war be ended where is the rest of the world and the U N. Our media is doing what it always does which is rabel rousing the population. Let the middle east sort itself out without us. All the middle east.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Aug, 2013 11:23 am
@JPB,
Quote:
"American Taliban" works for me.


Did the US government create this group too?
0 Replies
 
 

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