12
   

The Tea Party and the Muslim Brotherhood

 
 
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 09:28 am
@maxdancona,
"Prominent" politicians/members are looking to get elected or gain seats. They pander to all of the factions of those most likely to vote for their party in the two-party race.

You're talking about factions within a single larger political party. None of them are going to campaign on behalf of the issues that are important to the "other side" in a two-sided race.

Tea party voters, in my experience, are small-government conservatives who don't give a rat's ass about who marries whom or if someone believes in God. They do tend to fall more in line with the overall Republican party platform because that's where conservatism lives.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 09:31 am
bm....oh bloody hell!
BOOK-FRIGGIN MARK
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 09:42 am
@JPB,
Do you see the contradiction here JPB.

If the majority of Tea Party voters are small-government conservatives, why does every single one of the people they elect want to pass a law restricting who I can marry, or whether a woman can get an abortion. Small-government values are getting completely overrun by traditional religious values.

What you are claiming simply doesn't make any sense.


JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 10:03 am
@maxdancona,
You want politics to make sense?

It's simple. People vote for the candidate most likely to represent their views on what's most important. Once elected they form coalitions, typically within their own party, and end up supporting things that don't matter nearly as much to them as it does to the other guy in exchange for support on their own pet issues.

Generally, what's most important in this day and age is to not do anything that will cost someone his/her seat the next go-round, particularly in a primary battle.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 10:09 am
@JPB,
Thomas and I talked very briefly about U.S. politics this weekend. The American two-party system does seem to result in a more significant experience of "odd bedfellows" than you find in other countries - in addition to other problems it creates for the public.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 10:16 am
@JPB,
That still doesn't make sense to me.

I wonder if there are similar "small-government" conservatives in Egypt who support the Muslim Brotherhood even though they don't agree with the ostensibly religious message of the group.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 11:32 am
Take the whole tea party (insert word of choice if you can think of it) movement to get rid of the non existence of Sharia Law in our courts. An Oklahoma federal judge just struck down the state's constitutional amendment.

Oklahoma Anti-Sharia Constitutional Amendment Struck Down By Federal Judge

I have to say, I agree with McCain rather than Obama on the question of sending military aid to Egypt. I mean the Brotherhood was democratically elected. The military forced him out amounting to a coup, now we are supporting people being killed by that military.

Quote:
Sen. John McCain of Arizona renewed his call Sunday to stop aid as the Egyptian military continues to crack down on protestors seeking Morsi's return.

"For us to sit by and watch this happen is a violation of everything that we stood for," said the senior Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee. "We're not sticking with our values."


source




izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 11:43 am
@revelette,
It's all over the place, the country has polarised. Very few non-Brotherhood citizens are condemning the military. They really hate the Brotherhood, more so it seems than the military. That's about 80% of the population.

In fact the Brotherhood is being portrayed as part of some Western (yes really) plot to destabilise Egypt.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:06 pm
@izzythepush,
I don't really get it. Wasn't the Brotherhood elected by the people of Egypt in a fair election? Why can't they just have another election and vote for who they want if they didn't like the Morsy regime? How can they support hundreds of people being killed by the military?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:24 pm
Egyptian Government Slams Foreign Press As Journalists Come Under Assault

Quote:
CAIRO -- Facing a wave of international condemnation for its approach to a Muslim Brotherhood protest movement, and the soaring violence that followed in its wake, Egypt's government opened a sustained broadside against Western journalists over the weekend, accusing them of ignoring facts and "biased coverage."

"Egypt is feeling severe bitterness towards some Western media coverage that is biased to the Muslim Brotherhood and ignores shedding light on violent and terror acts that are perpetrated by this group in the form of intimidation operations and terrorizing citizens," one statement from the official foreign press coordination center said.

The criticism from officials within the government -- including statements or media appearances, much of them in English, by the presidential spokesman, the foreign minister and the press center -- came as several journalists found themselves subject to attacks on the streets of Cairo as they attempted to do their jobs.

On Saturday alone, half a dozen reporters faced intimidation, assault and detention by both authorities and unofficial vigilante gangs, as the journalists attempted to cover the siege of a mosque in downtown Cairo, where Muslim Brotherhood supporters had holed up ever since fighting broke out on Friday.

Matt Bradley, a reporter for the Wall Street Journal, and Alastair Beach, a correspondent with the Independent, both came under attack from the unruly mobs that had swarmed around the mosque, seeking to take out their frustration with the Brotherhood. Both men were eventually pulled from the crowd by nearby Army soldiers and suffered minimal physical damage, although Beach was hit in the head by an assailant with a long stick.

In a dramatic moment captured live on the television cameras of Al Jazeera, the two men could be seen being shielded by a group of sympathetic bystanders who formed an arm-linked chain, while the soldiers put the two reporters into an armored personnel carrier for their protection.

Both reporters later said they were not seriously hurt, and that the military had treated them kindly and with respect. "Today, I feel like the army and I are very much on one hand," Beach wrote on Twitter after the events, a reference to a common refrain at pro-military demonstrations, "The people and the army are one hand." "Gotta say I agree," Bradley replied.

In an even more harrowing experience, Patrick Kingsley, the Egypt correspondent for the British paper the Guardian, documented on Twitter a series of captures and releases over the afternoon at the hands of several different gangs of individuals downtown, some of them police, others seemingly unrelated to the authorities. His laptop computer and cellphone were also taken from him in the process.

Earlier in the week, officials at the Press Center, which regulates and accredits foreign journalists, announced that no visiting journalists would be issued press identifications without prior approval from the intelligence services, a break from long-standing practice.

In a statement put out on Friday, Sherif Mansour, the Middle East and North Africa coordinator for the Committee to Protect Journalists, called the situation facing reporters in Egypt unprecedented. "Journalists are in more danger than they were under Hosni Mubarak," he said.

But the campaign to persuade and cajole western media to cover the government's side of the story more fully began in earnest on Saturday evening, when the Press Center sent reporters a seven-point dispatch that accused them of "conveying a distorted image" of the situation. Among the complaints were a failure to cover the extent of the "violent and terror acts" allegedly committed by the Muslim Brotherhood, as well as ignoring "the huge numbers of victims" among the police and army during the fighting.

“Many of these stories are missing [on the international media],” Mostafa Hegazi, a spokesman for the presidency, said in one of the official condemnations on Saturday.

The Press Center also distributed a compact disc of images and videos showing what was said to be evidence of terrorist acts and violence being perpetrated by members or associates of the Muslim Brotherhood. A similar course played out at the press conference for the president's spokesman on Saturday night, which commenced with a 10-minute video about the Brotherhood's alleged crimes, before a separate appearance Sunday morning by the foreign minister, Nabil Fahmy. At that final event, a packet of images entitled, "Egypt Fighting Terrorism" was handed out to reporters.

Each of the packages contained similar content, much of it even identical: primarily captured on state television, it showed men seemingly associated with Muslim Brotherhood protest marches firing automatic weapons at crowds, and the aftermath of churches and police stations that were allegedly attacked by Islamists.

In fact, many journalists have covered these events, with reporters traveling to towns where police were attacked and churches burned in the days after the violence started, on Wednesday. And while the evidence of automatic weapons at the protests has been clear, the nature and background of those using them, and their relationship with the Brotherhood itself, remains opaque.

Nearly 1,000 people have been killed in violence across Egypt since the recent bout of clashes started on Wednesday, a number that seems poised to keep rising. The toll includes dozens of police officers. Also on Saturday night, some 250 Muslim Brotherhood members were arrested, state media reported, pending charges for weapons possession and terrorism. More than 1,000 Brotherhood figures have been arrested in recent days, and many of the party's top figures are in hiding.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:24 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
They really hate the Brotherhood, more so it seems than the military. That's about 80% of the population.


Walk me through this.

Morsi, a member of the Moslem Brotherhood was 'democratically" elected by a majority of Egyptians(I suppose) and now 80% of the population are against him?

What am I missing here?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:30 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
In fact the Brotherhood is being portrayed as part of some Western (yes really) plot to destabilise Egypt.


others are presenting the military as being under the control of the west

the only thing everyone seems to agree on is that things are not being well-reported

my dance instructor keeps pointing out that we shouldn't think the police and military are on the same side. apparently traditionally the military supported the previous regime, while the police were independent and "for the people"
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 01:46 pm
You can't have a democracy and not have a democratically elected government. I am curious about what kind of government will finally be imposed.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 02:04 pm
@panzade,
I think what we're all missing is knowing how we'd react had we been living under a dictatorship all our lives. Our tradition of democracy is established, we may not respect who gets elected, but we respect the procedure, we believe that we'll have another chance in 4-5 years time.

In Egypt there's no such respect. The Moslem Brotherhood was the only organised political force, other than the military, so in the event of a divided and confused opposition the two candidates in the run off were the Brotherhood or the Military.

Faced with such a stark choice, Morsi won, people gave him the benefit of the doubt. After a year though they felt let down, they started the revolution and the Brotherhood were stealing it. There were clampdowns on the sale of alcohol, the constitution that the Brotherhood put through was Islamic, Morsi started calling for Jihad in Syria, and he appointed known terrorists as governors.

That's when people took to the streets, because they thought if they waited another three or four years it would be too late.

I'm not supporting either side, and I think the violence is shocking. The fact that the current regime has the backing of the vast majority of the population means Morsi isn't getting back in. Unless both sides sit down and talk the violence will just get worse.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 02:19 pm
@izzythepush,
I would think they would quickly get tired of a military rule just as much as an Islamic rule. In any case, killing hundreds of people is not the way to a democracy or by having a propaganda war with its own people.

Quote:
At least 36 people detained on suspicion of taking part in the street clashes roiling Egypt's capital were killed Sunday when security forces fired tear gas inside of the prison truck holding them, security officials said.

Those killed were part of a prison truck convoy of some 600 detainees heading to Abu Zaabal prison in northern Egypt, the officials told The Associated Press. Detainees in one of the trucks rioted and managed to capture a police officer inside, the officials said.

Security forces fired tear gas into the truck in hopes of freeing the badly beaten officer inside, the officials said. The officials said those killed died from suffocating on the gas.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to journalists.

However, the officials' version of events contradicted reports about the incident carried by state media. The official website of Egyptian state television reported that the deaths took place after security forces clashed with militants near the prison and detainees came under fire while trying to escape. The official MENA state news agency also said the trucks came under attack from gunmen.

State media also said all those killed and the gunmen belonged to the Muslim Brotherhood, the organization that ousted President Mohammed Morsi hails from. The officials who spoke to AP said some of the detainees belonged to the Brotherhood, while others didn't.

The differences in the accounts could not be immediately reconciled Sunday night.

The officials who spoke to the AP said that the detainees were rounded up during the past two days of street violence around Cairo's Ramses square, clashes that killed scores of people.

Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood group is leading mass rallies against the country's military over the July 3 coup that ousted Morsi. The Brotherhood, long banned in Egypt, rocketed to power in the country's first democratic elections held last year.

source
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 03:21 pm
@revelette,
Truth is very hard to come by, both sides are quite prepared to lie about the other. The people, it would seem, would much rather tolerate a military dictatorship than an Islamic one.

The military does want fresh elections.

I don't support any of this, I'm just trying to give some perspective that's all.

I think all military aid should be suspended until the violence stops. Other than that I'm at a loss, but I think we should back off. Any Western involvement, other than calling for talks, would just make things a lot worse.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 03:45 pm
@izzythepush,
thanks for a lucid explanation izzy
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 03:55 pm
@izzythepush,
I can understand not wanting to be ruled by Islamic rule. I know in our country I wouldn't want to be ruled by the religious right, though at times it seems we are. I also agree that the violence must end. I am just wondering how come it seems the military over there has so much power. Why bother with elections if the military can just take it away by force and killing the opposition?
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:04 pm
@revelette,
reve wrote
Quote:
I am just wondering how come it seems the military over there has so much power.


Quote:
Egypt receives more U.S. foreign aid than any country except for Israel, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq.

The exact amount varies from year to year and there are many different funding streams, but U.S. foreign assistance to Egypt has averaged about $2 billion a year since 1979, when Egypt struck a peace treaty with Israel.


http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-heli-300x200egypt-heli-300x200

0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:13 pm
Another interesting thing which has happened is that the military bosses who have taken over Egypt (to spare it from oblivion) are promising to rebuild the Christian churches which the animals have destroyed:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/16/egyptian-military-chief-vows-to-rebuild-coptic-churches/

The message in that is simple: those guys may no longer give a rat's ass what Americans think of them or what George Soros or Bork Obunga think, but they DO care what Vladimir Putin thinks...
 

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