12
   

The Tea Party and the Muslim Brotherhood

 
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:17 pm
@revelette,
The Military claims it was reacting to the will of the people, there were huge marches denouncing Morsi, but they've probably got as much reason to fear an Islamic takeover as anyone else.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:35 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The Military claims it was reacting to the will of the people, there were huge marches denouncing Morsi, but they've probably got as much reason to fear an Islamic takeover as anyone else.


This was the point one of the talking heads was making last night. The military is making sure there isn't a repeat of what happened in Iran.

Quote:
Following the overthrow of the Shah's government on 11 February 1979 (22 Bahman 1357), members of the old regime, including senior generals, were executed by revolutionary leadership. For this aim, the Islamic regime formed komitehs (committees) in all provinces.[12] Ayatollah Mohammad Reza Mahdavi Kani was the chief of the Central Provisional Komiteh for the Islamic Revolution.[12] The komitehs were lack of necessary mechanism and legal procedure, leading to restructuring on 8 March 1979.[12]
In the first couple of months, over 200 of the Shah's senior civilian officials were killed as punishment and to eliminate the danger of coup d'état.[13] The first death sentences were approved by the Tehran court on four of the shah's generals on February 1979.[14] They were Mehdi Rahimi, the military commander of Tehran, Reza Naji, the military governor of Isfahan, Nematollah Nassiri, the head of SAVAK, and Manuchehr Khosrodad, an air force general. All four generals were executed by firing squad on the roof of the then Ayatollah Khomeini's headquarters on 15 February.[14]
Emphasis added. Source: wiki

panzade
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:46 pm
I've got a new A2K zero-tolerance rule.
As soon as some clown jumps in with racist pictures and fascist propaganda I thumb down the thread.

If I see a new thread on this subject I'll be eager to chime in.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:46 pm
@panzade,
ignore user rather than ignore thread may be a better option
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 04:55 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Truth is very hard to come by, both sides are quite prepared to lie about the other. The people, it would seem, would much rather tolerate a military dictatorship than an Islamic one.

The military does want fresh elections.

I don't support any of this, I'm just trying to give some perspective that's all.

I think all military aid should be suspended until the violence stops. Other than that I'm at a loss, but I think we should back off. Any Western involvement, other than calling for talks, would just make things a lot worse.


agree on all points
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:07 pm
@JPB,
Me too to you two.

I'm out of my league. I had a friend who was a coptic christian from eritrea who landed in Los Angeles and worked with us. Through him, I met not only eritrieans but ethiopians. My niece is part liberian.

What does this mean? I'm not analyzer.

I tried once to post on a thread about congo stuff and Robert shut me down as dumb and annoying.

Guess what I think about that.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:08 pm
@JPB,
Aren't we all ignoring Gungasnake anyway?
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:35 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
This was the point one of the talking heads was making last night. The military is making sure there isn't a repeat of what happened in Iran.


By killing pro-Morsy protesters? This is democracy?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:39 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The Military claims it was reacting to the will of the people, there were huge marches denouncing Morsi, but they've probably got as much reason to fear an Islamic takeover as anyone else.


Are you saying the Military has a much reason to fear an Islamic takeover as anyone else? It wasn't exactly a takeover, they were elected into power.

If by some miracle the country doesn't descend into civil war and Egypt holds another election. Some group is elected in, people don't like them again, is the military going to get rid of them of them again? It makes a mockery of the whole electoral process.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:39 pm
@revelette,
By preventing the return of Morsi and potentially their own demise?

HellifIknow what the truth is of the matter. It was an opinion expressed by an American talking head.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 05:55 pm
@revelette,
You're right, they were elected into power, but they were still adjusting to the reins of power. They hadn't taken over yet.

I would echo JPB's 'hellifIknow.' on this.

This is very much an Arab thing, we can try to understand it, but our Western minds rotate around a very different axis.

Look at what happened when there was a revolution in France.

History will judge Sisi as either a tyrant or the saviour of the revolution. It's way too soon to tell.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 07:29 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Another interesting thing which has happened is that the military bosses who have taken over Egypt (to spare it from oblivion) are promising to rebuild the Christian churches which the animals have destroyed:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/16/egyptian-military-chief-vows-to-rebuild-coptic-churches/

The message in that is simple: those guys may no longer give a rat's ass what Americans think of them or what George Soros or Bork Obunga think, but they DO care what Vladimir Putin thinks...


http://www.debka.com/newsupdatepopup/5380/

Quote:

« Breaking News »
Putin acts in support of Egyptian military
DEBKAfile August 17, 2013, 6:54 PM (GMT+02:00)
Russian President Vladimir Putin called an extraordinary session at the Kremlin Saturday to “discuss the situation in Egypt and take the necessary steps to the put Russian military facilities at the Egyptian military's disposal,” said an announcement in Moscow, without elaborating. Putin said further that “Russia will arrange for joint military exercises with the Egyptian army.” DEBKAfile: Moscow’s steps directly conflict with Western condemnation of the Egyptian military’s crackdown on the Muslim Brotherhood. They were taken shortly after President Barack Obama cancelled a joint military exercise with Egypt as a mark of US disapproval.


Discussion on FR:
http://freerepublic.com/focus/news/3055973/posts?page=1

After five years of Obunga/llibtard rule, US foreign policy is basically a shambles.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 18 Aug, 2013 07:43 pm
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2013/08/18/bambi-meets-godzilla-in-the-middle-east/

Quote:
....President Obama has had a rude awakening in the Middle East. The region he thought existed was an illusion built on American progressive assumptions about the way the world works. In the dream Middle East, democracy at least of a sort was just around the corner. Moderate Islamists would engage with the democratic process, and the experience would lead them to ever more moderate behavior. If America got itself on the “right side of history,” and supported this hopeful development, both America’s values and its interests would be served. Our relationships with the peoples of the Middle East would improve as they saw Washington supporting the emergence of democracy in the region, and Al Qaeda and the other violent groups would lose influence as moderate Islamist parties guided their countries to prosperity and democracy.
This vision, sadly, has turned out to be a mirage, and Washington is discovering that fact only after the administration followed the deceptive illusion out into the deep desert. The vultures are circling now as American policy crawls forlornly over the dunes; with both the New York Times and the Washington Post running “what went wrong” obituaries for the President’s efforts in Egypt, not even the MSM can avoid the harsh truth that President Obama’s Middle East policies have collapsed into an ugly and incoherent mess......
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 06:03 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I think you are wrong about that Thomas. Most of the Ayn-Randian wing of the tea party are staunchly religious. And yes, I am aware of the basic contradiction that exists because of the real Ayn Rand's strong atheism.

Quite possible that I'm wrong. For the most part I have given up trying to understand the Tea Party. This way lies madness.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 06:20 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
I wonder if there are similar "small-government" conservatives in Egypt who support the Muslim Brotherhood even though they don't agree with the ostensibly religious message of the group.

Everything is possible, but I would be surprised if this was a large faction. Business people in Egypt, who would benefit from a less meddlesome government, tend to be socially liberal. I imagine that most of them will side with the military because it's their largest customer, or support some of the liberal/democratic parties if they're idealistic and independent enough to pull it off.

On a more general note, aren't you the cultural relativist in our philosophical discussions? In understanding the politics of foreign countries, it is rarely helpful to think of them as if they were little Americas. Egypt has its own political constellations, its own ideologies, its own economic pressures, and so forth. Like most foreign countries it's best understood on its own terms. Terms like "Egyptian Tea-Party" for the Muslim Brotherhood, or "American Taliban" for the Tea Party, are unlikely to help.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 06:35 am
@revelette,
revelette wrote:
I don't really get it. Wasn't the Brotherhood elected by the people of Egypt in a fair election?

Yes it was.

revelette wrote:
Why can't they just have another election and vote for who they want if they didn't like the Morsy regime?

Because Morsi had, over the last year, granted himself near-absolute powers that are nowhere in the constitution, using them to replace this constitution by a new, Sharia-based one.

revelette wrote:
How can they support hundreds of people being killed by the military?

Many Egyptians don't. The others may accept it because they think that living under a secular military with unchecked powers is a lesser evil than living under Sharia law and a president with unchecked powers.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 06:52 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
On a more general note, aren't you the cultural relativist in our philosophical discussions? In understanding the politics of foreign countries, it is rarely helpful to think of them as if they were little Americas.


You got that backwards, Thomas.

I am not viewing Egypt as a "little America". I am more viewing America as a little Egypt. This thread is intended to use the Muslim Brotherhood as a metaphor for the American Tea Party, not the other way around.

Metaphors aren't symmetric or associative.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 06:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
You got that backwards, Thomas.

I am not viewing Egypt as a "little America". I am more viewing America as a little Egypt. This thread is intended to use the Muslim Brotherhood as a metaphor for the American Tea Party, not the other way around.

Fair enough, but that approach has the same problem. Comparing it with the Muslim Brotherhood may make you think you understand the Tea Party, but it doesn't make you understand it.
gungasnake
 
  0  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:06 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
I am not viewing Egypt as a "little America". I am more viewing America as a little Egypt. This thread is intended to use the Muslim Brotherhood as a metaphor for the American Tea Party, not the other way around.


The analogy is retarded. The US Tea Party is basically the populist wing of the GOP; the slammite brohood is a bunch of barbarians.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Aug, 2013 07:16 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Because Morsi had, over the last year, granted himself near-absolute powers that are nowhere in the constitution, using them to replace this constitution by a new, Sharia-based one.


I remember hearing about that. It does make it complicated.

Quote:
Many Egyptians don't. The others may accept it because they think that living under a secular military with unchecked powers is a lesser evil than living under Sharia law and a president with unchecked powers.


Pretty crappy choices. In any event, nothing really justifies the death toll of pro-Morsi protestors. I think the military is getting worried about western criticism of the crackdown and is having some kind of media propaganda war targeting a western audience.

Egypt condemns European Union threats to halt aid as death toll rises

Egyptian media in PR offensive targeting the West

 

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