How come Americans are so bad at spelling and grammar?

@Lustig Andrei,

She/he/it has trouble remembering which is the favored position, but yeah, expect an appearance.

@Gabrielle72,

I don't so much mind evolution in language, which some might call mistakes, as long what people say makes logical sense. The "can" versus "may" debate is splitting hairs, but consider these abuses of language:

(1) I rounded to the nearest zero.
(2) I could care less.
(3) What will become of men when women have a comparative advantage both in child-rearing and in workplace activities?

These phrases are like nails on the chalkboard to me.

The first is wrong because you always round numbers to a certain decimal place, and when you talk about rounding to "the nearest zero" you are failing to convey important information about what decimal-place you're rounding to. The second conveys a meaning which is the opposite of what the speaker intends. The third is an abuse of the technical term "comparative advantage" (from Economics).

Language is not "all relative". Expressions like the second one I mentioned that mean the opposite of what you'd think they meant if you pieced the meaning together word by word, are, in a very objective sense, an inferior form of communication.

Don't let JTT terrorize you into thinking otherwise. Wink

1 Reply

@Gabrielle72,

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True, everyone learns to speak. (Well not everyone; people with hearing and/or speech impairment don't.)

Hearing impaired also learn to speak, in sign language. In fact it's been found that deaf children of deaf parents, when exposed to their parent's signing, significantly improved and enriched the sign language grammatically.

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The point is, people learn to speak the way they hear the language spoken by other people around them. That's not necessarily correct.

But it is correct, Gabrielle. It may not be standard English but it is correct for whatever dialect it is they speak.

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Only by learning grammar they learn to speak and write correctly.

I think that you are confusing the conventions/prescriptions that people are taught wrt writing with the rules of natural grammar. As I mentioned, children have pretty much got all the rules of any language by the time they reach about five.

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I understand that native and non-native speakers learn the language in different ways, but some mistakes could easily be avoided.

Tell me about it. If there weren't so many bogus rules/prescriptions that have been taught to people for hundreds of years then ESLs would have a much better chance of becoming fluent in English.

1 Reply

@Kolyo,

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The first is wrong because you always round numbers to a certain decimal place,

That's just plain false.

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These phrases are like nails on the chalkboard to me.

First, they aren't phrases, Kolyo, they're sentences. Second, you're simply repeating a silly old canard that you've stolen from some old grammar marm, or some style manual writer - same thing

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The second conveys a meaning which is the opposite of what the speaker intends.

That's false too.

Kolyo doesn't know **** about language. = Kolyo knows **** about language.

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The third is an abuse of the technical term "comparative advantage" (from Economics).

Economics, like medicine, like sports, like Biology, like ... does not own the English language. Every sensible person understands the meaning of jargon. They also understand that the jargon of any given discipline can have very specialized meanings.

What Kolyo know about language doesn't amount to a hill of beans. = What Kolyo know about language amounts to a hill of beans.

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Language is not "all relative".

What in the world does that mean?

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

That's just plain false.

Do me a favor then and "round off" 1346524 correctly.

3 Replies

What'd I tell you?

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

If there weren't so many bogus rules/prescriptions that have been taught to people for hundreds of years then ESLs would have a much better chance of becoming fluent in English.

Well, it would be the easiest to become fluent in English if we didn't have to follow any rules at all, but if we could speak and write however we want. The problem is, that would create quite a chaos and people wouldn't understand each other anymore, because everyone would use their own "rules".

1 Reply

@Gabrielle72,

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Well, it would be the easiest to become fluent in English if we didn't have to follow any rules at all,

You aren't grasping what 'rule' actually means, Gabrielle. We all pretty much fastidiously follow the natural rules of language. Kolyo gave some examples of bogus rules/prescriptions that we don't follow because they are "alien to the natural workings of language."

0 Replies

@Kolyo,

Kolyo wrote:

JTT wrote:

That's just plain false.

Do me a favor then and "round off" 1346524 correctly.

Alright, I take it JTT isn't going to answer this.

So I will, in just a sec...

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@Kolyo,

That's not what you said, Kolyo.

This is what you said,

"The first is wrong because you always round numbers to a certain decimal place,

Quote:

Do me a favor then and "round off" 1346524 correctly.

1,346,524

1,000,000 - rounded off to the nearest million

1,346,500 - rounded off to the nearest hundred

1,300,000 - ...

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Merry the coward! How have you been you old reprobate?

1 Reply

@roger,

Let's discuss it, Roger the dodger.

0 Replies

@Kolyo,

Kolyo wrote:

"round off" 1346524 correctly.

There is no one way to answer this question correctly.

1,346,520 is correct, but so is 1,346,500, and 1,347,000. As are 1,350,000 and 1,300,000. (Don't forget 1,000,000.)

So there are multiple valid answers to my question. Okay, why should that bother us? Well, because if your boss tells you to "round off the figure you come up with", and that figure is 1,346,524, then what the bloody hell are you supposed to tell him? Eh? You've got 6 equally valid answers. He didn't tell you what decimal place you were supposed to round to, and therefore his question was worded poorly.

1 Reply

@Kolyo,

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So there are multiple valid answers to my question. Okay, why should that bother us? Well, because if your boss tells you to "round off the figure you come up with", and that figure is 1,346,524, then what the bloody hell are you supposed to tell him? Eh? You've got 6 equally valid answers. He didn't tell you what decimal place you were supposed to round to, and therefore his question was worded poorly.

I think that you've stolen this little story from some style manual too, Kolyo.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Merry the coward! How have you been you old reprobate?

I'm very well, thank you, JTT. Thought you'd like to know I just took you off my "ignore"list. I want to see just how far you'll go with your horseshit before you implode. Don't expect me to respond to very many of your posts, however. My blood pressure isn't what it used to be and I can very easily ignore your rants and raves without actually having you on any list. Once in a while -- maybe every 100th post or so -- you actually say something sensible.

1 Reply

@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
So there are multiple valid answers to my question. Okay, why should that bother us? Well, because if your boss tells you to "round off the figure you come up with", and that figure is 1,346,524, then what the bloody hell are you supposed to tell him? Eh? You've got 6 equally valid answers. He didn't tell you what decimal place you were supposed to round to, and therefore his question was worded poorly.

I think that you've stolen this little story from some style manual too, Kolyo.

If only...

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

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Thought you'd like to know I just took you off my "ignore"list.

Oh happy days!!!

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Don't expect me to respond to very many of your posts, however.

Oh happy days!!!

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@Kolyo,

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He didn't tell you what decimal place you were supposed to round to, and therefore his question was worded poorly

You're bad mouthing the boss, Kolyo, and your question was the one poorly worded. There are no decimal places in 1,346,524.

1 Reply

@JTT,

I kid in my high school Physics class once remarked how true it was that cats always landed on their feet and toast always landed butter side down. He jokingly wondered aloud what would happen if you tied a buttered piece of toast to a cat's back, butter side up, and dropped the cat from a second story window. Would the cat land on its feet, or would the toast land butter side down?

I'm too humane ever to try that experiment, but let me try another...

You contend that language means exactly what people say it means. If 99% of people who read your political posts considered them an incitement to commit terrorist acts, would they be exactly that?

1 Reply

@Kolyo,

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You contend that language means exactly what people say it means.

Did I make that contention? Considering how many things you've gotten wrong in such a short span of time, I'd have to say I don't believe I did because I believe people often use language to say things they don't mean.

1 Reply

How come Americans are so bad at spelling and grammar?

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