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Pope Francis Revolution Is Underway, Not Everyone Is Pleased

 
 
Miller
 
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2013 11:41 am
Francis not pleasing all Catholics
Analysis: Comments reinforce idea that a very different papacy is underway
By NICOLE WINFIELD
Associated Press
Posted: 08/03/2013 12:00:19 AM PDT
Updated: 08/03/2013 12:00:20 AM PDT


The Francis Revolution is underway. Not everyone is pleased.

Four months into his papacy, Francis has called on young Catholics in the trenches to take up spiritual arms to shake up a dusty, doctrinaire church that is losing faithful and relevance. He has said women must have a greater role — not as priests, but a place in the church that recognizes that Mary is more important than any of the apostles. And he has turned the Vatican upside down, quite possibly knocking the wind out of a poisonously homophobic culture by merely uttering the word "gay" and saying: so what?

In between, he has charmed millions of faithful and the mainstream news media, drawing the second-largest crowd ever to a papal Mass. That should provide some insurance as he goes about doing what he was elected to do: reform not just the dysfunctional Vatican bureaucracy but the church itself, using his own persona and personal history as a model.

"He is restoring credibility to Catholicism," said church historian Alberto Melloni.

Such enthusiasm isn't shared across the board. Francis' predecessor, Benedict XVI, had coddled traditionalist Catholics attached to the old Latin Mass and opposed to the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council. That group greeted Francis' election with concern — and now is watching its worst fears come true. Francis has spoken out both publicly and privately against such "restoratist groups," which he accuses of being navel-gazing retrogrades out of touch with the evangelizing mission of the church in the 21st century.
His recent decision to forbid priests of a religious order from celebrating the old Latin Mass without explicit authorization seemed to be abrogating one of the big initiatives of Benedict's papacy, a 2007 decree allowing broader use of the pre-Vatican II Latin liturgy for all who want it. The Vatican denied he was contradicting Benedict, but these traditional Catholics see in Francis' words and deeds a threat. They are in something of a retreat.

"Be smart. There will be time in the future for people to sort what Vatican II means and what it doesn't mean," the Rev. John Zuhlsdorf warned his traditionalist readers in a recent blog post. "But mark my words: If you gripe about Vatican II right now, in this present environment, you could lose what you have attained."

Even more mainstream conservative Catholics aren't thrilled with Francis.

In a recent interview with the National Catholic Reporter, Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput said right-wing Catholics "generally have not been really happy" with Francis.

To be sure, Francis has not changed anything about church teaching. Nothing he has said or done is contrary to doctrine; everything he has said and done champions the Christian concepts of loving the sinner but not the sin and having a church that is compassionate, welcoming and merciful.

But tone and priorities can themselves constitute change, especially when considering issues that aren't being emphasized, such as church doctrine on abortion, gay marriage and other issues frequently referenced by Benedict and Pope John Paul II.

The Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, used the word "gay" for perhaps the first time in its 150-year history on Wednesday, in an article marveling at the change Francis has brought.

"In just a few words, the novelty has been expressed clearly and without threatening the church's tradition," the newspaper said about Francis' comments on gays and women. "You can change everything without changing the basic rules, those on which Catholic tradition are based."

The biggest headline came in Francis' inflight news conference on the way home from Brazil this week, when he was asked about a trusted monsignor who reportedly once had a gay lover.

"Who am I to judge?" he asked, when it comes to the sexual orientation of priests, as long as they are searching for God and have good will.

Under normal circumstances, given the sexual morality at play in the Catholic Church, outing someone as actively gay is a death knell for career advancement. Vatican officials considering high-profile appointments often weigh whether someone is "ricattabile" — blackmailable.

But Francis said he investigated the allegations himself and found nothing to back them up. And that regardless, if someone is gay and repents, God not only forgives but forgets. Francis said everyone else should too. By calling out the blackmail for what it is, Francis may well have clipped the wings of an ugly but common practice at the Vatican.

Francis also made headlines with his call for the church to develop a new theology of women's role, saying it's not enough to have altar girls or a woman heading a Vatican department given the critical role that women have in helping the church grow.

While those comments topped the news from the 82-minute news conference, he revealed plenty of other insights that reinforce the idea that a very different papacy is underway.

· Annulments: He said the church's judicial system of annulling marriages must be "looked at again" because church tribunals simply aren't up to the task. That could be welcome news to many Catholics who often have to wait years for an annulment, the process by which the church determines that a marriage effectively never took place.

· Divorce and remarriage: He suggested an opening in church teaching which forbids a divorced and remarried Catholic from taking communion unless they get an annulment, saying: "This is a time for mercy."

· Church governance: He said his decision to appoint eight cardinals to advise him was based on explicit requests from cardinals at the conclave that elected him who wanted "outsiders" — not Vatican officials — governing the church. Francis obliged, essentially creating a parallel government for the church alongside the Vatican bureaucracy: a pope and a cabinet of cardinals representing the church in each of the continents.

And then there was Rio.

From the moment he touched down, it was clear change was afoot. No armored popemobile, just a simple Fiat sedan — one that got swarmed by adoring fans when it got lost and stuck in traffic. Rather than recoil in fear, Francis rolled down his window. Given that popes until recently were carried around on a chair to keep them above the fray, that gesture alone was revolutionary.

He told 35,000 pilgrims from his native Argentina to make a "mess" in their dioceses, shake things up and go out into the streets to spread their faith, even at the expense of confrontation with their bishops. He led by example, diving into the crowds in one of Rio's most violent slums.

"Either you do the trip as it needs to be done, or you don't do it at all," he told Brazil's TV Globo. He said he simply couldn't have visited Rio "closed up in a glass box."

DailyBulletin.com



 
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Aug, 2013 01:12 pm
As an atheist, brought up Anglican, with a keen interest in the Catholic Church, I have to say I like this Pope. I hope there aren't any Dan Brown type shenanigans.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 04:34 am
@contrex,
He's not planning on writing a crappy novel is he?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 04:39 am
F*ckin' Catlicks . . . piss, moan, whine . . .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 05:53 am
@Setanta,
I foresee a really cheap papacy with this guy. I hear hes gonna get a van and have it outfitted with rugs and a cooler for road trips.
Nomore "PopeForce 1"
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 05:57 am
Women still not good enough to be ordained, No change there!

But apparently gays are ok now .... in a grey area type of way.



Change my arse, anyway if he tries to change to much the old guard would surely poison him. JP1.

A pathetic out of touch & corrupt organisation and let's not forget still a haven for child molesters.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 06:02 am
@eurocelticyankee,
ok ok, I get it, but lets just watch a bit and see what happens.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 06:26 am
Let's not forget, as Ian Paisley so eloquently put it, that "The Bishop of Rome is not the Bishop Of Northern Ireland!"
Miller
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 11:25 am
@contrex,
The Pope supports the rights of gays to become priests, yet the Pope is against gay marriage.
Kolyo
 
  3  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 12:11 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

The Pope supports the rights of gays to become priests, yet the Pope is against gay marriage.


Which part bothers you?

He loves the sinner and hates the sin.

Loving the sinner, and recognizing that we're all sinners, he supports allowing people who are inclined towards the particular sin of gay sex to become priests. Because, after all, we're all inclined toward some kind of sin; would-be gay priests just happen to be inclined towards the particular sin of gay sex.

Hating the sin, he doesn't want to see it sanctified in a marriage rite.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sun 4 Aug, 2013 01:11 pm
@Miller,
Quote:
Such enthusiasm isn't shared across the board. Francis' predecessor, Benedict XVI, had coddled traditionalist Catholics attached to the old Latin Mass and opposed to the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council. That group greeted Francis' election with concern — and now is watching its worst fears come true. Francis has spoken out both publicly and privately against such "restoratist groups," which he accuses of being navel-gazing retrogrades out of touch with the evangelizing mission of the church in the 21st century. His recent decision to forbid priests of a religious order from celebrating the old Latin Mass without explicit authorization seemed to be abrogating one of the big initiatives of Benedict's papacy, a 2007 decree allowing broader use of the pre-Vatican II Latin liturgy for all who want it. The Vatican denied he was contradicting Benedict, but these traditional Catholics see in Francis' words and deeds a threat. They are in something of a retreat.

"Be smart. There will be time in the future for people to sort what Vatican II means and what it doesn't mean," the Rev. John Zuhlsdorf warned his traditionalist readers in a recent blog post. "But mark my words: If you gripe about Vatican II right now, in this present environment, you could lose what you have attained."

I'm happy with him reaching out to women and to differing sexual orientations. But if he acts against the old Latin Mass, perhaps maybe it's time for a bit of schism?
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Aug, 2013 10:07 am
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

The Pope supports the rights of gays to become priests, yet the Pope is against gay marriage.


Considering the U.S. is a Protestant majority nation, the Pope is not addressing those aspects of Catholicism that keep Protestants from ever converting by their own volition (excluding marrying a Catholic person). For example, the concept of intercession by a Saint, Confession, Absolution of one's sins, and the concerns about a redistribution of wealth, all keep Protestants going to their respective churches, in my opinion. Also, the little emphasis on the value of reading the bible, or its literal meaning, and the devaluing of having the spirit in one's heart, as opposed to good works as a way to Salvation, also might not be looked upon as the Protestant way.
And, perhaps most important to Protestants is the feeling that they can pray directly to God (in Jesus' name), rather than "intercession". [Foofie you mentioned that already].

Anyway, only because Catholics are great in number is the Pope's thinking of interest. However, nothing really changes for society, or the country. Still a (great) Protestant nation, in the annals of history.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Aug, 2013 12:40 pm
@Kolyo,
Kolyo wrote:

he supports allowing people who are inclined towards the particular sin of gay sex to become priests.


Who has said that gay sex is a sin? Was it the Pope? Or is you ( Kolyo).

Why would gay sex be a sin? If being gay is considered normal, why isn't gay sex ( in you opinion ) also normal?
Miller
 
  0  
Reply Tue 6 Aug, 2013 12:50 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I'm happy with him reaching out to women


Looks like the Pope isn't the only one "reaching out to women". Recently a Catholic priest in Massachusetts was arrested for the 2nd time for having sex in a cemetary with a female prostitute.

I suppose that nothing really beats that "reaching out", especially when it's conducted a dark cemetary.
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Aug, 2013 01:49 pm
@Miller,
Miller wrote:

Who has said that gay sex is a sin? Was it the Pope? Or is you ( Kolyo).


The general idea, I think, is that lust is a sin and is only permissible when it leads to the procreation of children. It's not my view that lust is a sin, but rather one that I've heard from various Christians. Marriage between straight people is okay, according to this logic, because it can lead to children, whereas a marriage between gays is mere indulgence of one's lustful desires. Again, not my view but one I've heard.

I do like Catholics who take the love-the-sinner-hate-the-sin view on homosexuality that Francis espouses because it's an improvement over the more savage hate-the-sinner-and-don't-hesitate-to-stone-him view that a lot of Christians take. My aunt told me about this one incident in, I think, Bangor, where some gay man was murdered for being gay, and a local priest went on record condemning the murder and condemning homophobia and hate crimes. This view was too tolerant for the Catholic Church, which removed that priest from his position. Like most Christian institutions, the Catholic Church has a lot hateful hypocrites in it. We should all be glad the new pope isn't one of them. Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Aug, 2013 02:31 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:

Women still not good enough to be ordained, No change there!

But apparently gays are ok now .... in a grey area type of way.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=litnTBtYMGY[/youtube]

Change my arse, anyway if he tries to change to much the old guard would surely poison him. JP1.

A pathetic out of touch & corrupt organisation and let's not forget still a haven for child molesters.


Give him a chance!

Greater change comes from slow, careful steps than from leaps!
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Wed 7 Aug, 2013 03:15 am
@Frank Apisa,
Give him a chance for what?.
We already know women are to remain 2nd class citizens, that's a done deal.
So he doesn't hate gays just what they do and what they are, that's nice of him.

So he seems like a nice guy.. with true convictions and I say good luck to him.
To tell the truth I fear for the man if he tries to hard to change things, the Catholic church is not adverse to murder, even of their top dog.


But.... tell me this, just what evil does an organisation, an ideal, a government, a country have to do before you finally say enough is enough, no more chances.

Say an organisation the Vatican has had close ties with over the years, the Mafia... got a new Godfather... would we be giving him a chance to make a difference?.

By all means sit a bit and watch and see what happens. Pull up a chair and enjoy the show.

Similarly I'll be watching Hassan Rouhani, another so called reformer and similarly I wont be expecting ****.
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Aug, 2013 03:30 am
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:

Give him a chance for what?.
We already know women are to remain 2nd class citizens, that's a done deal.
So he doesn't hate gays just what they do and what they are, that's nice of him.

So he seems like a nice guy.. with true convictions and I say good luck to him.
To tell the truth I fear for the man if he tries to hard to change things, the Catholic church is not adverse to murder, even of their top dog.


But.... tell me this, just what evil does an organisation, an ideal, a government, a country have to do before you finally say enough is enough, no more chances.

Say an organisation the Vatican has had close ties with over the years, the Mafia... got a new Godfather... would we be giving him a chance to make a difference?.

By all means sit a bit and watch and see what happens. Pull up a chair and enjoy the show.

Similarly I'll be watching Hassan Rouhani, another so called reformer and similarly I wont be expecting ****.


Calm down! Give him a chance.
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Aug, 2013 05:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
You calm down too, don't want you blowing a gasket.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 02:02 pm
A religion is a bit like a horticulture application. Human activity being the fruit and vegetables. If good produce is required the right things need to be done.

Obviously somebody can gain a superficial popularity by teaching that there is no need to manure the patch and double dig the **** in every autumn adding bone meal and soot and maybe lime if the pH is a bit out of whack. May, indeed, even get a following.

The competitors in the giant marrow contests do not concern themselves with the sacrifices they need to make to get into the final.

The expert advisers are not trying to spoil anybody's fun. They are concerned with high class produce.

The great advantage that those who dissent from the Church's teaching on sexual activity is that their way of doing things has not got to the germination stage yet. All things considered it might be seen still at the stage of the seeds in a brightly coloured packet on a garden-centre shelf. No downsides are yet in sight.

What happens to the seeds is the only subject worth discussing. As things stand a large number of professional tempters are offering the easy way and doing very well out of it. And given the advantage I mentioned they can't go wrong in a world in which sacrifice itself is seen as idiotic.

So try growing good produce on ground that has not been tended by expert methods.

I know the early settlers could just move on to the next virgin land and could afford to use the easy way but when they reached the Pacific coast that was the end of that.



 

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