Should I tell my adult children how things were

My advice is to focus on the present and forget the past.

If you want to have good relationships with your daughters now, then focus on having good relationships with your daughters. Tell them that you care about them now. Tell them that you would like to be part of the lives of your grandchildren.

Those are the things that are important.

What happened in the past with their mother is irrelevant and you should just forget it. If you are asking them to relive battles from the past, of course they are going to reject it. You should not even try to discuss what happened with their mother and you.

Work toward building a good relationship with your children and grandchildren now.

Relationships are important. Fighting past battles isn't.

Sound advice, i hope you'll listen to Max.

Without discussing your ex, you could certainly express your feelings to your daughters. Having a heart to heart about how you see your relationship with them and how their behaviors make you feel is fair game. There is another side to this discussion in that they are going to "share" with you as well. Other than saying "there are two sides to that story" when your daughters bring up old history, I would strongly avoid disparaging your ex. No way that helps you with your kids.

I've never in 17 years talked bad about their mom to them because they lived with her and even though she trashed me to them every chance she got, I still would never sink to that level. They know I love them, they know they can call me or visit anytime they want to. When I try to visit them, they go off "to lunch or shop" with their mom. But after 17 years of being patient and calm when they get irrational over trivial things and start yelling and name calling, I'm trying to find another way to approach them so they can understand where this relationship between us has gone haywire. They don't understand why I'm so happy with my new wife and step daughters & grandchildren. They don't participate in anything with me so they think I should be miserable without them. All of the advice everyone has posted is great and I've tried that for 17 years, but it's not working. They are all adults with their own families now and I can't live another 17 like this and miss out on my grandchildren's lives. They are playing "keep away" with my grandkids just like my ex did with them.

Parental Alienation is ugly stuff and courts are just now starting to recognize it as a form of child abuse. Since your daughters are getting hostile with you over trivial issues and it doesn't sound like mom "encouraged" a strong bond be maintained between you and them as children, I would absolutely agree that P.A.S is the root of this evil that's plagued you for 17 years. Sadly, most times this brainwashing cannot be undone because it becomes a way of life for the children and they never learn to have a healthy relationship with the target who's being alienated. As bratty as your daughters sound, even as adults, believe it or not they don't know better. This behavior was allowed and engaged by the mother who "loved" them but needed them to stay with her and side with her against you throughout the divorce. I would bet anything your girls loved you and probably wanted to live with you at some point during their youth and this turn-about took you by complete surprise that your sweet angels would hate you like they do? Your daughters probably enjoyed mom's attention to their "problems" when they were unhappy about something insignificant that occured at your residence such as "dad wouldn't let me do....whatever" and mom probably pounced on that and reassured them their wishes were not unreasonable and dad was just being mean, or step mommy was being mean", etc. This is how PAS covertly seems into their innocent little brains and turns mom's vendictive attitude towards dad into the children's attitude towards dad. It sounds like you've tried longer than most parents to win your daughters affection that you once had when they were young. I'm not sure if telling them of past history will make a difference, but if you have nothing to lose at this point in your life, and it sounds like this is all or nothing shot of opening their eyes, then I say let them know the truth about you and mom, but don't make it a mom bashing incident. I would just explain to them this is what you endured with their mom, this is why you are now happily married to someone else, and please please please urge them to get educated in PAS because they are the same path of abuse of their own children. They've already started it with you and if they ever divorce, chances are they will do the same to their children's fathers. Best of luck.

maxdancona, this is sound advice when dealing with a typical child of divorce who can comprehend and sympathize with the parent who is trying to reach out. People who grew up being victims of PAS become adults with relationship issues and have no sympathy or understanding for the target of the alienation. It is truly a form of brainwashing children by one parent towards the other parent for selfish hateful reasons and courts are now recognizing it as child abuse in custody cases. I say after 17 years of trying to get the message across to his daughters he needs to hit them with both barrels and wake them up to what their mother has done to damage him and his kids relationship. That's my honest opinion. Someone very close to me was a victim of PAS and there is no chance of ever having good relationship because his father is now dead and he hated him until the end but doesn't know exactly why.

Really?! Hitting them with both barrels? I honestly don't see how that will do anything good. You don't build family relationships by fighting wars.

Even if I accept your analysis of "PAS", my advice is the same. His daughters are adults now with their own lives and the ability to make their own decisions. Whether or not they are "victims" or not doesn't matter.

Let me put it this way.

If an estranged family member came to me saying that he wanted to have a relationship with me and was sad that we didn't have a connection, I would take that favorably. I would very likely take it at face value and be willing to at least talk and maybe to work toward a reconciliation.

However if an estranged family member came at me "with both barrels" claiming that my mother was abusive and demanding that I listen -- I would shut that off very quickly and there would be zero chance of reconciliation.

A conflict based approach to reconciliation never ends well.

Wow Reid, it's like you're in my head. I was extremely close to my oldest daughter until the divorce and when she entered the teen years is when I lost that relationship and she became very angry with no difinitive reason. Me and my whole family didn't see her for years. She avoided my whole family like the plague. My two youngest used to love visiting me on my weekends early on and hated going home because they didn't like their step father. I used to have to carry my youngest to her mother's door because she didn't want to leave me but around the 2nd year after the marriage dissolved is when the anger and hate started coming out of my girls and floored me that they could act so hateful towards me for no reason at all. We would have some great times and then I'd get a call from my ex complaining that the girls didn't like this or that, but I never witnessed it when they were with me. Then on my next visit they wouldn't be as happy to see me and I knew things weren't right at their mom's home. My doctor told me then about PAS but that long ago there was nothing I could do but keep being there for them and making sure they know how much I love them and want to spend time with them. They are grown now and they are still just as angry over nothing or things that don't even pertain to their lives. They go months without speaking to me and then out of the blue I get an ugly text from one because they saw me on facebook interacting with my step-granddaughter and it makes them mad. I just can't seem to win with them, ever.

I don't know if I agree with you, Reid, re PAS, and no advice to our poster. PAS, I'm just now reading about, but I post you up for a cogent opinion.

I can see the progression of this stuff. What you say resonates.

I hope this thread isn't a variation of call and response spam.

Since we are talking about adult daughters in this situation, I fail to see how PAS is relevant-- if the issue is how to rebuild a lost relationship.

The idea of PAS is probably relevant in a custody battle with minor children. And, it may be relevant for one of the daughters to work out her own feelings.

But for the estranged father in this case to charge (rightly or wrongly) that his problems connecting are cased by PAS is unhelpful.

If you want to rebuild a lost relationship then you need to do the work to rebuild it. This starts with humbly opening a door on the other persons terms. I fail to see how fighting this battle can possibly end up with a closer relationship between father and daughters.

If fighting the battle is more important than rebuilding the relationship, then by all means, go in with all barrels firing... but I still fail to see the benefit of this. But, it all depends on what you want to accomplish.

If I read the original post correctly, he doesn't sound like he wants this to be a conflict or bring it about in any kind of anger or highly emotional confrontation. He said he hasn't spoken ill of his ex in 17 years but feels her opinion of him to the daughters has been unprovoked and less than favorable causing this rift. I believe he is wanting to educate them as to the whys and hows of things and they absolutely need to know how easy it is to use a child as a weapon because they are already demonstrating that with their own children. "Both Barrels" is a harsh way of saying that the information is not something they will take lightly but it is part of who he is and why this abuse from his ex plays into their lives as well as his own. It sounds to me as if his passive behavior with them for all of these years is getting him nowhere and he needs to wake them up before it's too late. Should he bring the ex's behavior to light or not? No one can say for sure. But if it's too late to prevent the PAS, the next step is to educate the victims involved as to how it happened and why.

These daughters are adults. If they aren't receptive to being "educated", then what?

Personally, I wouldn't be receptive to being "educated" this way. I would be receptive to an offer to rebuild the relationship without being forced to see myself as a "victim" or forced to re-fight old battles.

I'm not arguing with you on that, agree.
I was, though, taken with a new view.

Does he say how many children there are and their ages? I find it unusual that EACH of them has such equal disdain for their father and they ALL regard him the same . . . H-m-m-m.

But let's say he's telling us an accurate portrayal of the situation . . .

It's not unusual for children of the first marriage to be jealous of children of the second marriage. While the actions of his children do seem extreme, we need to remember that they were brought up in a dysfunctional setting and that's not going to be remedied.

So what can he do now? I say - since he recognizes their jealousy and can appreciate its source - extend the olive branch one more time. Say, "Mary, I'd love to have a relationship with you and your children, but you seem so angry at me about things that happened in the past. Your mother and I did not have a good marriage. There were hurtful things that happened on both sides. But that is in the past. You now have children. I'd like to be involved with my grandchildren if you and I can have a healthy relationship. Is that something you'd like to try to do today?"

If they don't want to relate with their father in a non-abusive way, then he needs to cut off all contact with them. It's just too toxic for all parties involved.

I wouldn't talk about feeling excluded and miserable and cheated upon unless you do manage to reconnect. Don't do it in order to reconnect. They won't believe you if you haven't first and foremost rebuilt some level of trust.

Maybe you can tell your daughters, or just one of them for a start, that you want to spend some time with her and her family, and if they're okay with it, you'll try to organize something, like a weekend or a week together in some nice place, e.g. some place she always wanted to go to. The point of going away is to change the context and avoid the presence of your ex, in order to start on new bases. And you can even have your new family join this weekend/trip/vacation, so that your daughter(s) can see how your new family treats you. You daughter might come out of a sense of duty, or curiosity, or guilt... That doesn't matter. What matters is that she come, and what you make of that time together. You'll probably have just one try. Don't overplay your hand, don't be apologetic or tense, don't shout, just try and make sure everybody has a good time, including your son-in-law and grand-kids. If it works, you can try it again next year, with two daughters, or another one this time...

It will in any case take a lot of time to repair your relationship with your daughters, and it may work with one and not another. You got to set your expectations low, and work on it progressively.

My take is varied :

- to me it seems that your children are afraid that you will abandon them again (remember, this part is about what they feel & believe, rather than about what the reality was)...for they are pleasant until they feel their relationship with you is threatened. Have you sat them down and told them of your hopes and dreams with them?

- have you told them of your hopes for their future, and of your desire to support them...and then just listened to their response? They will likely ask questions, or even throw accusations at you - both are an opportunity (rather than directly bludgeoning them over the head 'with both barrels') for exploration of their feelings, and their understanding of yours.

- you sound very emotionally exhausted, frustrated, and even angry at the unfairness of it all, regarding what your ex has done to your, and to your relationship with your children.

- I hope you will consider this : every child wants to think good of their parents (sometimes well into adulthood, though adulthood often hardens their views). That is to say, attempting to destroy their view of their mother (that is likely how they will view it) will likely incur resistance...and perhaps even backfire (but nothing is certain, for we vary a lot in temperament as humans).

Good luck with everything.

Thanks vikorr. I have told them many many times of my hopes for their future. I just spent 3 days with my middle daughter in March and it was great. The next time I hear from her was blasting me in a text message about walking my stepdaughter of 17 years down the aisle at her wedding. The youngest were infuriated that I didn't get there "permission" to do this and my daughter wanted to be the next one walked down the aisle, but has no plans to be married. I don't even know how to respond to that nonsense other than to tell all of my daughters I will be there for them when their day comes. I never got a copy of that rulebook! I love my stepdaughters just like my biodaughters. It's like they like me until I do something that triggers jealousy, but they have no reason to be jealous of anyone. They grew up enjoying playing with their step sisters but overtime they considered the step sisters the enemy. I can't just ignore my stepdaughters to appease my bio-daughters and they don't understand that even now. The language and hate that spews from them towards me is unbelieveable sometimes. I'm not the bad guy, I'm the one who tried and tried and has never stop trying to include them in things. They reject me and then yell at me for living my life. It's a definite rollercoaster of emotions with them ever since they were little. Thanks for the advice, I'll sit down and regroup how I want to handle this.

How old are these "adults"?

Like I said before, jealousy between blended family siblings is common, although I'd say yours is extreme.

You may be caught in the 25 - 30-something insecurities of these women "adults.'

In the meantime, you must not allow ANYONE to talk to you like that, so just say, "I guess you aren't feeling well today. I'll let you go." And then hang up.

The more verbally abusive they are, the more they will try to escalate their abuse. You must find the words to stop it and tell them they can no longer speak to you that way.