41
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  6  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 06:41 am
The people who decided to use the tools of the American government to surveil everyone should be fired, especially those who took an oath to defend the Constitution. These people are the "domestic" enemies of the Constitution that the oath of office refers to. The law is the property of the American citizens, not of the government aristocrats.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:24 am
@Brandon9000,
Yeah--that's what democracy means.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I'm not on any high horse; I just understand the English language that states that the government must have 'probable cause' of a crime for them to get a warrant to search private information.

That anyone, including judges who say different haven't offered the evidence to perform a search - legally.

They're just stupid or ill informed. Read the Constitution; it's all there!


So now judges who disagree with you are stupid or ill informed!

Bad habit to break, isn't it. Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 07:38 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
In the end I imagine this will go to the Supreme Court. I am fine either way, but I wonder if you all will be? If the bulk collecting becomes the law of the land, will you all continue to say it is unconstitutional?


The words of the constitution is as clear as could be on this matter the only issue is whether the courts will or will not enforce those words at this point in history.

The constitution did not change in regard to the matter of separate but equal one little bit between the SC finding that separate but equal treatment between races was constitutional in 1896 and when the then court in the 1950s change the ruling and found that the separate but equal concept not constitutional.

The SC can decide not to enforce the words of the fourth amendment as written but that does not change the words or the meaning of those words.





And you also!

What a joke! Wink
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:15 am
@Brandon9000,
If I felt as strongly as you and others do, I would simply keep on working within the system to try and get people elected (in the government) who feel as I do so the laws will reflect my beliefs. The next election should prove interesting if in fact people do feels strongly on this issue and it is a deciding factor when they go to the polls.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:22 am
@revelette2,
It is very well known, revel, that the "stick rattling in a bucket" is the top priority in elections. That's what "It's the economy--stupid!!" means.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
But what if the material Miranda had truly did have information which would endanger the lives of personnel overseas? Wouldn't they have a duty to make sure it is does not get out into the public? See, this is the complicated mess that happens when people start deciding on their own these matters without knowing all the facts. At the risk of getting all kinds of condescending remarks thrown my way, I agree with the ruling as unpopular as that is.
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
So now judges who disagree with you are stupid or ill informed!


When judges disagree then that applies to one side or the other. Which side anybody thinks is stupid or ill-informed is a matter of personal taste.

And being spied on with your own money is a very refined taste. It's getting close to being posh.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
The constitution state in very clear language in the fourth amendment the conditions needed for the government to search and or seized a person property.

You do not need a law degree or be sitting on the Supreme Court to understand that amendment.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:42 am
@BillRM,
In this case you do, because the data is only stored, not searched until it is flagged by certain words which meet the criteria.

Kind of like road blocks, there is no reason to stop people at random, but police do it during the holidays and stuff but only people that behave suspiciously will be questioned more intensely.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:50 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

But what if the material Miranda had truly did have information which would endanger the lives of personnel overseas? Wouldn't they have a duty to make sure it is does not get out into the public? See, this is the complicated mess that happens when people start deciding on their own these matters without knowing all the facts. At the risk of getting all kinds of condescending remarks thrown my way, I agree with the ruling as unpopular as that is.


So do I, Revelette.

Both the government of the UK and the US have an obligation to see to the safety of the people. And while these guys keep throwing these US Constitutional certainties at us...the fact is that the requirement "provide for the common defense"...gives all branches of government considerable latitude in what they do.

That is why I say that court rulings are required...not the word of scholars such as we have here.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 08:51 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

The constitution state in very clear language in the fourth amendment the conditions needed for the government to search and or seized a person property.

You do not need a law degree or be sitting on the Supreme Court to understand that amendment.


Obviously that is what YOU think...but the courts often disagree. The First Amendment, for instance, has been interpreted in many, many different ways.

So has the second and fourth and fifth.

YOU do not get to decided. The courts do.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 09:09 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yes indeed the courts have a history of not enforcing the constitution as written from time to time to the shame of those courts.

The question is not once more what the constitution state but whether the courts will or will not enforce the constitution a written in this case. Not one and the same issue.

Quote:
AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


At some points in our history the courts had allowed men to had been placed in prison for exercising that clear right such as during world war one for speaking out against that war for example or even producing a movie dealing with our revolutionary war showing our WW1 ally the Brits in a bad light.

The lesson here to take away is not that it is hard to understand the constitution but that the courts can not always be counted on to enforce the constitution with special note of the bill of rights.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:27 pm
@BillRM,
This is what Wiki gives which it is reasonable to assume is correct.

Quote:
The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights that prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and requires any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted in response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, a type of general search warrant issued by the British government and a major source of tension in pre-Revolutionary America. The Fourth Amendment was introduced in Congress in 1789 by James Madison, along with the other amendments in the Bill of Rights, in response to Anti-Federalist objections to the new Constitution. Congress submitted the amendment to the states on September 28, 1789. By December 15, 1791, the necessary three-quarters of the states had ratified it. On March 1, 1792, Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson announced the adoption of the amendment.

Because the Bill of Rights did not initially apply to the states, and federal criminal investigations were less common in the first century of the nation's history, there is little significant case law for the Fourth Amendment before the 20th century. The amendment was held to apply to the states in Mapp v. Ohio (1961).

Under the Fourth Amendment, search and seizure (including arrest) should be limited in scope according to specific information supplied to the issuing court, usually by a law enforcement officer who has sworn by it. Fourth Amendment case law deals with three central questions: what government activities constitute "search" and "seizure"; what constitutes probable cause for these actions; and how violations of Fourth Amendment rights should be addressed. Early court decisions limited the amendment's scope to a law enforcement officer's physical intrusion onto private property, but with Katz v. United States (1967), the Supreme Court held that its protections, such as the warrant requirement, extend to the privacy of individuals as well as physical locations. Law enforcement officers need a warrant for most search and seizure activities, but the Court has defined a series of exceptions for consent searches, motor vehicle searches, evidence in plain view, exigent circumstances, border searches, and other situations.

The exclusionary rule is one way the amendment is enforced. Established in Weeks v. United States (1914), this rule holds that evidence obtained through a Fourth Amendment violation is generally inadmissible at criminal trials. Evidence discovered as a later result of an illegal search may also be inadmissible as "fruit of the poisonous tree," unless it inevitably would have been discovered by legal means.


In England the word "reasonable", and its opposite, is interpreted as what the man on the Clapham omnibus would think. An early form of the wisdom of numbers. And the first formal step to the abolition of hereditary ruling elites.

It was an American idea that judges and politicians and such like were no more capable of deciding important matters than the man in the street and that any averagely intelligent man, and, I suppose in this enlightened age, woman, could satisfactorily fulfill all the offices of the state.

Anybody who has read Francois Rabelais is likely to think that the average person would be better at judging due to not being so predatory, lazy and corrupt down to n number of generations as judges are likely to be.

It is exactly what Apisa wants that gave rise to the amendment in the first place. It was the mischief of the British "writ of assistance" that gave rise to the Fourth. With Apisa you get the mischief back only with brilliant technological expertise added.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:33 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Yes indeed the courts have a history of not enforcing the constitution as written from time to time to the shame of those courts.

The question is not once more what the constitution state but whether the courts will or will not enforce the constitution a written in this case. Not one and the same issue.

Quote:
AMENDMENT I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


At some points in our history the courts had allowed men to had been placed in prison for exercising that clear right such as during world war one for speaking out against that war for example or even producing a movie dealing with our revolutionary war showing our WW1 ally the Brits in a bad light.

The lesson here to take away is not that it is hard to understand the constitution but that the courts can not always be counted on to enforce the constitution with special note of the bill of rights.


YOU do not get to decide what is a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution, Bill. That is done by the courts.

And if the legislative branch disagrees with them, they can pass legislation to correct what the court has decided.


BOTTOM LINE: YOU do not get to decide with is and is not legal...or constitutional. The courts do.

Get over yourself.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
FA: BOTTOM LINE: YOU do not get to decide with is and is not legal...or constitutional. The courts do.
----------

Government of the sheeple, is it?
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
YOU do not get to decide what is a reasonable interpretation of the Constitution, Bill. That is done by the courts.


Sorry the courts get to decide what parts of the constitution they will enforce or not enforce however it is not a reasonable interpretation under the constitution to allow a movie director to be sentence to ten years in prison for creating a movie showing the Brits in a bad light or to sentence people to twenty years in prison for peacefully speaking out against a war!!!!!!!!!

Quote:
And if the legislative branch disagrees with them, they can pass legislation to correct what the court has decided.


An congress can override the SC when it rule that a law in unconstitutional!!!!!

Do you have a clue how our system of government work at all?????????????

Of course President Jackson once told the SC to go screw itself as far as them finding against the moving the Indian tribes west of the Mississippi

cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 12:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You wrote,
Quote:
"provide for the common defense"
, but ignore all the other straight-forward amendments to the Constitution.

It's called "probable cause." There is no probable cause to collect mass data of all Americans as if we are all terrorists.

Also, "provide for the common defense" is a red herring which can be interpreted as "our government can do anything it wishes including ignoring all the other amendments to the Constitution."
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 01:20 pm
If you don't post here, what about this customizable Edward Snowden action figures for the cool price of $99?



Quote:
Proceeds from sales of the action figure will be donated to the Freedom of the Press Foundation, which named Snowden to its board of directors last month, a group that also includes Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsberg, journalist Glenn Greenwald, and actor John Cusack. The toy manufacturer notes in a disclaimer, however, that the nonprofit did not sponsor the action figure.

The toy site also features a lengthy "celebrity action figures" page where you can browse through the likes of Ron Paul, Eric Holder, Rahm Emanuel, Rick Santorum, and, of course, President Obama.
Source
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Feb, 2014 01:59 pm
@JTT,
SC judges are appointed by the president who is of course elected by the people in a fair election. People in congress are elected by the people, the whole government is elected by the people in as fair a democracy as we can make it. It is not perfect. If the people want those laws to change then they should vote for people who will make the changes they want and appoint the judges they want.

In the end, this will end up in the SC, who knows how it will turn out. I don't have a clue at this point. I am ok however it turns out.
 

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