42
   

Snowdon is a dummy

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 07:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
A lot of things may or may not happen... We could start a thread to list them. My entry is: vital anti-terrorist information may or may not come out of my arse.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 07:15 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
The thing about Apisa is that he is 77 and the NSA can do very little to affect him at this stage. What the NSA might do if left unhindered for somebody with a good few decades still to go is not something an aged solipsist would think of considering.

The chances of Big Brother arriving in Apisa's time are a lot less than Him arriving in a 20 year old's lifetime.

Opinion polls show that support for Mr Snowden gets stronger with the length of the prospective lifetimes get longer.

Good point. After Frank the deluge.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 07:20 pm
@Olivier5,
Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm 78, so it's not about age! I'm one who believes that the closer our country comes closest to the ideals of the US Constitution, the better off all/everybody will be. We're slowly going "there," but with discrimination against blacks and women still so common in our country, we still have a long ways to go!
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 08:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
but with discrimination against blacks and women still so common in our country, we still have a long ways to go!


Let see we now have a "black" president and the odds are good that the next President will be a woman by the name of Hillary.

We do have problems still of unfairness base on race and sex but we are going in the right direction in those regards at least.

As far as NSA is concerning all of us are being put at great risk to our future no matter what race or sex we happen to be.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 08:29 pm
@BillRM,
I totally agree, but during my life, I've seen much progress in this country. I'm a third generation Japanese-American, and have lived during that period before WWII and immediately after when we were discriminated against. During the war, my family was put into concentration camps for four years because "we looked like the enemy." We were American citizens.

Fast forward to today. My brother is Mayor of his town (2d time), and served two terms in the California state legislature. Our family is now made up of Germans, British, Dutch, Russian, Italian, Chinese, and Polynesian.

I call that progress with a capital P; all in one generation.
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Mon 6 Jan, 2014 11:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Hell, even the Supreme Court dosent know what it states since they change their interpertation of it every few years.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 04:33 am
Quote:


http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/01/activists-confess-to-1971-fbi-office-burglary.html


Activists Confess to 1971 Burglary That Exposed FBI Surveillance
By Margaret Hartmann

Forty-three years after pulling off a burglary that is mostly-forgotten today, but played a key role in ending FBI spying programs targeting dissident groups, members of an eight-person crew of anti-Vietnam protesters are confessing to the crime. Like Edward Snowdens of the seventies, the activists stole thousands of files and passed them on to major media outlets, inspiring multiple front-page reports and eventually more oversight of intelligence agencies. However, unlike the NSA leaker, they obtained the documents by breaking into an FBI office in a suburb of Philadelphia and stuffing papers into multiple suitcases. And since they were never apprehended or forced to go on the run, for the past four decades they've lived seemingly normal lives.
One of the reporters who received those materials has written a book on subject, and convinced five of the eight people who burglarized the the FBI office in Media, Pa., on March 8, 1971 to go public. Unmasking themselves for the first time, several burglars tell the New York Times that their aim was to show the public that J. Edgar Hoover was aggressively targeting dissident groups. The peace activists formed a plan to break into the office and snatch any files they could find, hoping they might provide some evidence. The group included grad students, college professors, and a cab driver. John and Bonnie Raines had three young children at the time and made plans for who would care for them if they were sent to prison.
After casing the office for months, the group broke in on the night of the Muhammad Ali-Joe Frazier fight and emptied the filing cabinets into suitcases. They reconvened a a farmhouse an hour away, and began sifting through the documents. After sending the evidence to several newspaper reporters, the group never met again.
The documents revealed plans for increased surveillance of various left-wing groups, and efforts by the FBI to sow paranoia among leftists by encouraging the idea that "there is an FBI agent behind every mailbox." Years later, the leak led to the discovery of a blackmail letter from FBI agents to Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., threatening to expose his extramarital affairs if he didn't commit suicide.
The files helped spark a Senate investigation into domestic intelligence gathering in the mid-seventies that led to various reforms. Though the FBI tasked 200 agents with finding the burglars, the agency never solved the case. The Raineses, who are pictured in The Times with their grandchildren, don't explain how their kids learned that their normal-looking parents were actually burglars and whistleblowers. John Raines said they must look like "terribly reckless people," for doing such a thing with three children at home, but explained they felt no one else would do it. "There was absolutely no one in Washington — senators, congressmen, even the president — who dared hold J. Edgar Hoover to accountability," he said.
[NYT]

0
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 05:06 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
It is that what you consider evidence is not proof that Snowden did wrong. Or has hurt us.

Taking our vital intelligence secrets and publishing them where our enemies can read them, is wrong, and is injurious to us.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 05:06 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
the odds are good that the next President will be a woman by the name of Hillary.

Very little chance of that after Obama's gun control debacle.

Look for the Republicans to take the White House in 2016. They'll likely hold it for awhile.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 05:11 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Look for the Republicans to take the White House in 2016. They'll likely hold it for awhile


Only by using methods as in the book "Seven Days in May" IE a military coup would that be likely......... Drunk
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 05:18 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Look for the Republicans to take the White House in 2016. They'll likely hold it for awhile.

Only by using methods as in the book "Seven Days in May" IE a military coup would that be likely......... Drunk

It is almost certainly what the voters will demand when they go to the polls.

"Do nothing presidents" are not terribly popular. They almost always result in the voters putting the other party in charge in the next election.

And after blowing every last bit of his political capital in a futile assault against an unassailable NRA position, Obama now has nothing left with which to achieve anything in his second term.


EDIT: Or were you only referring to the likelihood of the Republicans keeping the White House after winning it? Maybe I misread.

I'm not saying the Republicans will hold the White House for an extremely long time, like 50 years or anything. But they'll almost certainly get at least 8 years out of it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 06:15 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Taking our vital intelligence secrets and publishing them where our enemies can read them, is wrong, and is injurious to us.


That is correct only so long as the term "vital" has validity. Most people whose nose is somewhere near the ground knew what was happening. In fact would have been quite astonished to discover it wasn't.

Listening in pubs has one advantage over listening in a Utah complex littered with NOZMO KING signs. You get to drink a few pints on double time and maybe catch a lady's eye. And get the next day off. And get more reliable information. And to file an expenses claim once a month. It's much more romantic imo.

The thing is, oralloy, that if you build a better mousetrap it is best to clear the shelves of the old ones before going into production.

The only trouble is that in this case the shelves of traditional intelligence agents, James Bond types, are unlikely to go quietly to be replaced by computer nerds sat at a console in a bunker in front of a keyboard., Some of them ex-cons whose computer savvy has a proven track record which a computer course at an institution of the Higher Learning doesn't necessarily match.

Even Obarmy has admitted he would "have a conversation" with Snowden if he could fix the Obarmycare glitches.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 06:16 am
@cicerone imposter,
Well, there is an inverse correlation between age and support to Snowden in the US. Maybe it is not for the reason Spendi proposed and it does not work for everybody, but age is a factor, statistically.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 06:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Hate to burst your bubble, but I'm 78, so it's not about age!


But opinion polls are not about individuals.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 06:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Fast forward to today. My brother is Mayor of his town (2d time), and served two terms in the California state legislature. Our family is now made up of Germans, British, Dutch, Russian, Italian, Chinese, and Polynesian.

I call that progress with a capital P; all in one generation.


Some people would call it mongrelism. Breeders of the fastest racehorses and greyhounds go to extraordinary lengths to avoid that. Show dog nuts are obsessed with the matter.

Evolution is the only judge of progress and it denies that there is such a thing as progress.

That's where you betray your lack of understanding of evolution ci. At its root. You just use evolution to beat away Christian rules on rumpy-pumpy and it isn't hard to have a stab at guessing your motive.

"Progress celebrates Pyrrhic victories over nature", Karl Kraus said.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 07:37 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Your insistence that what you believe to be guesses are better than what has been proven to be against the US Constitution implies you are the "smarter one," and knows the right answer.

Here's another language lesson for you, Frank.
Quote:
im·ply
imˈplī/Submit
verb
3rd person present: implies
1.
strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated).
"the salesmen who uses jargon to imply his superior knowledge"
synonyms: insinuate, suggest, hint (at), intimate, say indirectly, indicate, give someone to understand, convey the impression,





Don't give language lessons, ci. You'd so better giving lessons in quantum mechanics.

Better qualifications! Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 07:38 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I don't need to have taught Constitutional Law; I understand English and what the Constitution states.


Right!

And then you probably understand that the SCOTUS determines what is or is not constitutional...not you, ci...or Edward Snowden.

Edit: Add the last "or Edward Snowden."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 07:40 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

"May or may not happen" is not the issue; the ISSUE is the government overstepping its bounds beyond its purview based on the US Constitution.

They swore to uphold the Constitution when they took office.




"May or may not happen" IS the issue in what we were discussing, ci.

Now you are merely indulging, as usual, in government bashing. You hate our government...and that is your right.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 07:40 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

A lot of things may or may not happen... We could start a thread to list them. My entry is: vital anti-terrorist information may or may not come out of my arse.


Start it if you want. What I had to say about "what may or may not happen" was germane to the discussion I was having.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 7 Jan, 2014 08:14 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

"May or may not happen" is not the issue; the ISSUE is the government overstepping its bounds beyond its purview based on the US Constitution.

They swore to uphold the Constitution when they took office.




I notice how indignant you seem about your perceived "they (some government officials) broke their oath"...

...yet you seem almost to want a ticker tape parade for Edward Snowden WHO BROKE HIS OATH.

So apparently you have no problem with people breaking oaths...so long as they are the people you want to be breaking them.

Interesting that!
 

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