Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

Why did you stop believing? Did you fail to consider how much God loved Israel in the OT? Did you fail to realize that God is ALMIGHTY and not a egotistical MAN? Was it the inconsistencies of the Catholic Church? Was it the weaknesses of American Christians in general? Was it that God is not restrained by physical laws (which He created). Is it that you don't want to be accountable to a Holy God?

I wouldn't call this logical.

He's basically a hard agnostic, asserting the position of classical skepticism (i.e. "no one can know anything") to religion.

I have no problem with soft agnosticism, but hard agnosticism is basically atheism in disguise, a sort of way to say "well I never really said God doesn't exist..." Which in turn, to my way of thinking is essentially nihilistic copout. I guess I'm thankful that he's not participating in mass murders (I guess I call that good), but his life seems depressingly bleak and pointless. And he works hard to try to snuff it out in others.

I am currently watching His Dark Materials, and I get the same sense from most of these people. I know the writer is an avowed atheist that has crazy notions about angels and original sin, but ummmm... this intercision process of splitting people from their daemons seems far more like what atheists try to do to people, separating them from their faith.

Quote:

Then, they separate children from their daemons — a painful, often fatal process called intercision. Since daemons are an extension of a person’s soul, intercision is akin to a lobotomy. Even if a person survives the process, he’s stripped of vitality. What is the purpose of intercision?

To the Church, Dust is a very, very bad thing. It’s physical evidence of Original Sin. Dust first landed on humans after Adam and Eve made the conscious decision to eat the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden. After that act, the Church believes humankind was irrevocably fallen. Dust is a reminder.

After the intercision process, Dust no longer settles on a person. That’s because her mind is completely closed to thoughts, choice, and vitality; she shuffles along purposelessly. The Gobblers aren’t saving kids. What the Gobblers are really doing is killing their spirits, and often their bodies.

We hear atheists talk about how Christians are "brainwashing" kids. Right. Because atheist adults seem so happy and adjusted. Half of them are in wokeness parades protesting problems that don't exist (climate change isn't real). The other half seem to be so caught up in YOLO weirdness that they essentially throw their lives away on crazy risks and addictions. Christian kids? They go to church. When society is healthy, they work, get married, settle down and raise families. When it isn't, they usually wind up getting martyred while just trying to live a normal life. Again, not Frank Apisa. But he's also got worldview that I'd honestly find too gloomy to function. I guess he does by not examining it too closely. I'm already insane, so no thanks, don't want what he's selling.

Wait until you get on your deathbed though.

You see, that luck isn't luck. It's favor. Someone out there favors you. No, I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about territorial ruling elite. The Powers and Dominions (in case you wonder why I'm capitalizing this, they're a class of angels) of this world see fit to keep people happy. Now, lest you think I mean that this is some sort of "demons trying to trick you into Hell thing", no that's not what I mean. Nor is it like sheep kept fat for a slaughter, though it seems to me you have spent a long portion of your life selling out and not asking questions.

You don't understand this world at all, because you have no spiritual knowledge and honestly don't wanna know. But for the most part this is okay. Until the last five minutes of your life.
Right about then, if you've had a bad life filled with pain, not having an afterlife
will be a bit like being put out of your misery, except there will be a horrible sense of injustice, like "what was all that suffering for?" So, no, this is not a true comfort even though it is an end to pain. For those with happy lives, this is perhaps more disturbing. It means that everything they are, and they have done is about to die with them.

We don't go to hell. Lemme restate that. But if we did, it would be far more like Shinto hell (the Shintos believe that being forgotten is the worst state ever) than some sort of fire deal. To be extinguished, to just kinda die spiritually as well as physically. Now, I think there's a sort of rebirth (we have body, spirit, and soul so there is some leftover crap that builds a new body which has no memory of what I've said). But everything that meant something to you will be gone.
How do I know this? It's because I've been close to death a few times. There was this cold sensation, and I saw darkness for miles. It wasn't something I wanted to continue entering, so I did what I could to survive.

What I mean by Powers and Dominions is that God employs these angels as earthly governors. They assign favor to people who seek after their happiness. They also punish those who disobey laws. The proverbs or psalms ( I mix them up) says that God rains on both the wicked and the righteous, and gives fortune to both the just and the unjust. It is for you to enjoy your life and that is fine. But you should not ignore difficult questions in this life. Happiness does not mean complacency.

The "problem" that I have is one minor and one major:
Minor: There is an amazing amount of power in living the Christian life. I
want that for you.
I rejoice that you, C.C. and others say that you are living good lives. Therefore, it is only a. minor "problem"
Major: You are going to hell. Once you die physically "Sinner in the hands of an angry God" becomes full reality.

God: General revelation makes it clear that I exist. I sent my Son so that you can know Me. You have no excuse for not worshipping Me.

NealNealNeal wrote:

The "problem" that I have is one minor and one major:
Minor: There is an amazing amount of power in living the Christian life. I
want that for you.
I rejoice that you, C.C. and others say that you are living good lives. Therefore, it is only a. minor "problem"
Major: You are going to hell. Once you die physically "Sinner in the hands of an angry God" becomes full reality.

God: General revelation makes it clear that I exist. I sent my Son so that you can know Me. You have no excuse for not worshipping Me.

You also did not answer the questions, Neal.

Too tough?[img][/img]

Frank Apisa wrote:

NealNealNeal wrote:

The "problem" that I have is one minor and one major:
Minor: There is an amazing amount of power in living the Christian life. I
want that for you.
I rejoice that you, C.C. and others say that you are living good lives. Therefore, it is only a. minor "problem"
Major: You are going to hell. Once you die physically "Sinner in the hands of an angry God" becomes full reality.

God: General revelation makes it clear that I exist. I sent my Son so that you can know Me. You have no excuse for not worshipping Me.

You also did not answer the questions, Neal.

Too tough?[img][/img]

Me: I have no problem with you being truthful.

God: You are not being totally truthful.
.

What questions? All I saw is "Blah, blah, blah my life is so great and so wonderful, how can that be if I'm supposed to be punished?" Something like that? It was honestly sort of irritating to read, so I ignored it, just as you've ignored most of my posts even though I honestly wanted to help you. Rude and condescending. What, you don't like being ignored either? Suck it up. I'm not answering those two questions.

I did answer your real question though. There are questions you ask, and there are questions that are recurring themes in your writing.
This has nothing to do with punishment. You see, we've got the forum topics mixed up. This is "If Jesus died to forgive us, then why is there a Hell?" There isn't one, not as you fear anyway. The Afterlife is of your own making, if you don't wanna go there, you cease to exist. Fun times.

So you're 85, you tell me you've had a great life, that's lovely. I have a dad somewhere in his 70s or whatever, also got most of what he wants. Seems happy. Fine, whatever. The point is not fortune or misfortune. Good fortune has very little to do with what you believe in, or how good or bad a person you are. But unlike you, my dad isn't likely to end life being afraid.

He has at least thought about theology. You seem to personify the expression "an unexamined life is not worth living." You are 85, and you will probably continue living until you're guzzling on life support. And you will tell yourself that you are not afraid of death and that I am crazy for even suggesting it until your end of days.

I expect many atheists think this exact way. They are fools, though. Death is all of the air getting sucked out of your body. All the light from your eyes. All the sound from your ears. And finally, your heart beating, and slowing down. And you suffer, and are in pain as things get colder and darker. And you said that death being just nothingness would be a relief but as you're dying, you suddenly don't want to die at all. And you've realized you didn't get to do this or that, but you're trapped. That time where you could have done something is over. And your life has just been a huge waste. All that happiness is swallowed up. The most pathetic thing of all this is that for most of their lives they believe they are the ones that are free, and theists are trapped. That somehow, someone was making them do this, or scaring them with hell. That it's some kind of control thing. But actually, you're the one stuck in a Gordian knot.

1. If your life was happy, all the things that made you happy are GONE when you die. There is no such thing as a life without regrets, and the worst regret is seeing a happy life end.
2. If your life was unhappy (that's me), no matter how much you want to die, you cannot accept a world where there is nothing to justify all your suffering. Now, you could argue that I didn't really strive for my happiness. But see #1. It's a scam. If I were to live 10 more years, 20 more years, 50 more years, I am well aware that I have to die. Neither happiness nor unhappiness makes nothingness any better.

The answer should be simple. A loving God could never condemn us to hell, even for disobeying. There is a price of disobeying. It's called death. All of us die as a result of our sin and disobedience. We can only cut the knot of our fear of death if we find a reason not to believe it is the final word.

But the way it sticks is if you decide that you don't want or need an Afterlife. This is a worse Hell than one of fire and brimstone. That you think this is okay? You need help way worse than I do.

But then, we knew this.
https://ndsmcobserver.com/2021/08/why-do-atheists-debate/
You see, whether an atheist or agnostic, the result is the same. Without something objectively true or valuable, there is basically to reason to argue. I mean, if you don't believe in anything... uhhh, why are you in this forum? If we can't know, and you really have no stake in the matter, then we are in moot point land. There's rational reason for you to argue. Atheists and agnostics should be the most indifferent people in the world when it comes to religion. Actually, you're:
1. Typing into a search engine on religion forums. This forum btw, is not that easy to find.
2. Creating an account.
3. Arguing with theists.

That's alot of work for someone who is supposed to be confident that there isn't any knowledge either way. Who are you trying to kid here? You are actively anti-theistic. If you were not, you would have let go of the discussion long ago.

OK Frank.
My "hail Mary" wish for you is that you continue to live a long and happy life (also you, Izzy).

NealNealNeal wrote:

OK Frank.
My "hail Mary" wish for you is that you continue to live a long and happy life (also you, Izzy).

Thank you, Neal.

It might interest you to know that, despite my present disposition toward religion, one of my most treasured memories involves me serving Mass...at St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican. It was in the Latin Rite, of course. I also served the Catholic Prelate of England in a high Mass back in the mid-1950's. I was listed in the program as an Acolyte, even though
I had never been invested with that that minor order.

Frank,
I am extremely ambivalent about this last quote. From a human interest point of view it is very interesting.
One thing that I am grateful for is that I had not been exposed to Christian liturgy until I had been a Christian a long time. I WAS exposed to Jewish liturgy which had no effect on me. The major impact of Judaism was our history lessons on people of the Old Testament. However, God completely disappeared after Malachi (the Chanukah story was more about Judas Macabee than about God). The Hebrew liturgy did not have much effect on me.
I wondered how God could completely disappear for 1900 years. My secular teachers taught about Evolution so I figured that maybe agnosticism was correct.
Then, the gospel was presented to me. I knew that I had found the answer to "the case of the missing God".
Liturgy is worthless unless a person understands what it symbolizes. What good is it if it is done in a language that people don't understand?
I know that Christianity is true. I do not have to guess like you do.

Yes, I would have trouble finding a website known as able2know. It's not an obvious forum name choice. Especially since I was looking for forums under categories (religion forums, political forums, forums where the mods aren't ban happy). Yeah, the name does not automatically come up. It was on one of these pages that lists popular forums. But it doesn't seem like a forum with such a name should be easy for people to find.

So that means you come to this forum for the sole purpose of spreading umm "sunshine" to believers in God.

As for enjoying life, I do plenty of that. Go on walks in nature, shop at malls, spend time with family, read books, and even play my share of video games. We watch movies on Netflix and in theatres. We do plays.

But the same people who attack my faith in God also decided it wasn't safe to go to plays or malls or churches. Who push sports betting but try to make the world masked. You think that following God makes you less free and less happy. But actually, it's the opposite. The dictatorships are usually secular. And the godless joyless people wanting cancel everything are the problem.

Not buying this happy atheist narrative. Normality for the last 30+ years has been in decline, and I can pin it directly to the fall in religious attendance. Religious people understand the joy of other people. But I've seen a rise in staring at cellphone screens. Distancing socially.