Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

Then let me ask you. What is love?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3rzgrP7VA_Q

But seriously, the Bible speaks of people who cry "peace, peace" where there is no peace.

Where is the peace in the secular world? It preaches about "tolerance" but all I see is bigotry around me. It preaches "diversity" but what I actually see is divisiveness. I have met the most loving people and accepting people among the church. Meanwhile, my so-called LGBT brothers and sisters are some of the biggest shits that the world offers. I know this from attending many meetings, from going to many Pride fests. I saw the local Marxist Youth (who really runs these things) set up the meetings, they were a group of kids who came hours early to set up the stage. None of them looked LGBT but they were happy to create the scene, because these were the useful idiots who would vote their way eventually (you should read up on how "tolerant" Soviet Russia was to gays). None of the Pride people even knew they existed, as they went on their long talks about how the church was hateful, and people paraded around in weird outfits and makeup. I went again to some of the restaurants where my group met. Where they proceeded to humiliate and degrade a waitress for getting it wrong "misgendering". She didn't know. Sometimes people are kinda at the border of masculine and feminine. They present as female, but expect to be addressed as male. Instead, this poor woman was probably fired for putting up with those shitty people who even decided not to tip her, and who reported her to her manager. I watched this woman work her ass off for people who treated her as a peon there to serve them, and when she made a simple mistake, made it their business to ruin her life. On any other day, she probably did a decent job, but she would probably not work there again. And the group likely resolved not to come there again, I'll bet. Btw, the person who was misgendered? Later they text messaged me close to 300 very irate texts at around 3am telling me of what a horrible person I was. This is actual hate, and I can't even remember what set them off. It was something thoughtless I said.
Meanwhile, I went to the most fundamentalist church ever, and the only hard time I got was a request not to use the women's bathroom, and a sermon about marriage and family. I walked out on the aftermath of that sermon, concluding that I wasn't being loved. About five or so minutes later, one of the people who had been friendly at the church actually headed after me, having heard the "but" to the sermon. You think about how much energy is required to catch up with someone who already has a head start, and try to tell them good news, even though they were too angry to hear it. But I later read the chapter involved, and went back to church. In fact, I turned my back on the "love" that the LGBT community showed, when they hated the church even though there were some very gay-allied churches. Even regular mainstream churches never gave me a hard time, I didn't have to go to some left-leaning church. This business of churches persecuting trans people, it happens only in movies or to some other person. I've been to everything from fundamentalist to weird out there (Unity church), and nobody has done more than maybe give a marriage and family sermon.

Who is being hateful? It's not Neal(NealNeal). Nor is it really me. I may scoff at Catholicism, but ultimately I hate how his religion has put him through serious ****, not Neal himself. Even though I criticized his religion, I don't see him going on a rage against me. Both of us are on relatively good terms. The one giving me a hard time is you. You should take a long hard look at these ideals you have, and tell me honestly if they are really about tolerance, but I don't feel tolerated by you. But Neal? Hell, I feel loved by him, even though I talked smack abour his religion.

To be in the church is to feel grace and love you don't deserve.

Reread that last part. Even though I seem on the verge at any moment of being on an angry rant, the church has treated me with alot of kindness. When I left for the year because of all the COVID crap, they weren't angry with me, they didn't judge me. They missed me.

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you? No, it's actually egotistical to think that your sins are too great to be covered under Jesus.

Bulma, allow me to answer the question I think you were asking rather than the question you actually asked, because I suspect you were asking, "What do YOU, Frank, consider to be "love."

"Love" is many things to different people. For me "love" is mostly a lack of fear, because for me, most hatred is nothing but "fear." So a lack of "fear", in my opinion, is sufficient to be considered "love."

At no point IN MY OPINION is "love" that "lust" that passes for love in books, movies and poems, nor is it the "love" that is part of the phrase, "I love my country" or "I love my fellow human." And most ESPECIALLY it is not the nonsense that passes for "love" of gods...particularly the supposed "love" Christians express for the god of the Bible.

Love, as far as I am concerned, is not a pro-active emotion...but rather an absence of the emotive expression of FEAR.

Almost all of the "hatred" I see spewed, particularly in Internet forum discussions, looks to me like "fear."

I disagree with you about your contention that you and Neal are not expressing hated.

You are...both of you. (Neal, this response is directed to you also.)

In the meantime, since I see "religion" as a net negative for humanity rather than a positive, I am delighted to see religious antagonism among religious adherents. That kind of activity does more to curb the influence of religion than any of the things those of us on the outside can do in that regard.

So...let's hear what you have to say about that.

My PURPOSE is to glorify God. Hopefully, I am sometimes successful.
God reveals Himself as "I AM" in the Bible. He created the universe and all other beings. Only He is to be worshipped.

In one sense you agree with the bible about love. The bible states that love casts out fear.
The Greek language is more specific when it talks about love There is "agape" which is unconditional love, "phileo" which is brotherly type of love, "Eros" which is sexual love, and a few other words for love. The most important love for Christians is "agape".
I don't fear you, Frank. I love you. I do fear the ultimate result of your lack of fellowship with God.
In the early 1980s I helped to take care of people with AIDS. I don't think I hated them. I loved the traditional family, so I did not approve of their sexual behavior. However, they needed help.
The hatred of " progressives" is tremendous now. There is a "censorship" mentality with them. We are losing our 1st Amendment rights.

Anyone who would worship a god that demands to be worshiped...is probably not actually worshiping. It sounds more like dealing with great fear.

I agree, Neal, with many of the supposed teachings of Jesus...one of which is that we should "love" one another.

If it is necessary for you to suppose that "progressives" are trying to censor someone or something in order to rationalize your hatred of them...do it. Whatever works!

If you're looking down your nose at someone you're not really helping them.

From the first few paragraphs, it seems that you are dodging the question by redefining it.

I didn't ask "What does love mean to you Frank Apisa?" I meant " What is love?" There is an objective sensation that you either get or you don't get.

Keep in mind, I know also what fake love looks like, having been in a cult for about three days, and having seen my share of phony people who play the love con.

When you are loved, it doesn't feel like tolerance. Tolerance is defined actually as hating someone but agreeing to put up with them. Actual love is acceptance. There is no"personal definition of love", you know what it is. Or you don't!

Uhhh no, they actually are censoring things.

Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben's rice have the image of their mascots or whatever. Someone is renaming these brands (acceptable) and removing the faces of real black people (hypocritical) in the name of "fighting racism". And someone is removing Civil War statues, not keeping in mind that the purpose of the war was to end slavery, and if we don't understand the war, what's to prevent us from being enslaved again?

And yes, you could do with a bit less gaslighting of people, and alot less sneering at them.

"Love" is for anyone what that person says it is. All there is for "love" is a personal definition of it. If a person thinks "love" is that lusty feeling one gets when one's dick is stiff...THAT IS LOVE FOR THAT PERSON.

You may want to think you can define "love" for everyone...and that YOUR definition is that one that must prevail in the reality. I suspect that is mostly because you do not know what you are talking about.

Think it over. You may end up agreeing with me on it.

Compared with the sneering and scorn and contempt you show for huge masses of people (mostly, it seems, because they are not of the same political persuasion as you)...my sneering of you is small potatoes.

You just don't seem to say much that makes sense, Bulma. That "civil war statues" comment up above is a mess. I doubt any logician could figure out what you were trying to sell there.

What would Jesus do?

Well he sure as hell wouldn't advocate Black Erasure in the name of fighting injustice.

I think he'd point out that BLM actually killed a fair amount of blacks, that conservatives helped pass the Civil Rights laws, and that the liberals (who havw taken credit for this), are actually descendents of the same group as the KKK. That everyone involved with them has been duped badly. And that color blindness, not talk of privilege or oppression, is the only true means of establishing equality. When it ceases to matter what skin color you are, everyone is equal aside fron things like growing up poor. Meanwhile, pointing out differences between blacks and whites actually undermines this goal.
https://blackcommunitynews.com/the-real-power-and-purpose-behind-black-lives-matter-movement/
He'd also point out that there is a difference from how the church has addressed the issue of equality, and how the secular world tries (and fails) to do so. That the church understands that All Men Are Created Equal (but this means something far different than the assumption that everyone starts off wealthy). You make bad decisions, and so do your parents. That has no bearing on the sort of equality the church talks about. As in, don't be so focused on attaining justice that you forfeit your soul and brutalize people around you. All of us are created into this world to attain eternal life. Jesus helped the poor and suffering but the goal was never to keep people from dying but to remind them that there is an Afterlife.
https://www.thepostemail.com/2020/06/26/to-antifa-and-blm-thugs-rioting-burning-and-looting/

Wow, Jesus was an American Conservative. Who woulda thunk??

No, he isn't.

But he isn't a hypocrite either.

And the left has become increasingly hypocritical.

Jesus is MODERATE, in the truest sense of the word. Back in his day, the conservatives (Jewish elites, known as the Pharisees) were the problem. The religion was too stuck in its ways. So he shook it up by messing with the priests and healing people on the Sabbath.

Jesus back then struck people as the ultimate hippie, opposing war, being against (established) religion, wandering the Earth, and telling people to love each other. But this picture sums up perfectly the misunderstanding the left has with Jesus.



Socialism is where we pay big taxes to the State (in this case, Rome) , anf they presumably help out instead of hoarding it as governments actually do when they claim everyone will be equal. Yeah, equally poor. I could throw my money into a hole and have better return!

But I digress. Jesus isn't a conservative. But the left of today would call him "far right". He isn't a liberal either despite some very hippie ideals. But the Pharisees would call him a "dangerous troublemaker" or "against our traditions." You see? Jesus is a moderate, it's what he opposes that is too extreme. And more often what he really opposes is not left/ right but the behind-the-scenes types who are also moderate (they only care for power) who have created a divide and conquer by setting up false differences and polarizing people. Try to think about what you actually want most. Chances are, after erasing both religion and technological gimmies from the list, both left and right want not to be bothered by the government (even though the far left wants the right to be spied on, and the actual far right not the "far right" would prefer a theocracy), both would prefer to sleep with the people they want (not gonna judge if this is gay), and to have a nice house. This is exactly what Machiavelli pinned down as a universal way to piss people off. Messing with their property, their liberty , and their lives (it isn't life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, they changed that cuz governments like taking people's property). Especially messing with their lovers.

Jesus would fully be in favor of letting people alone. But the Romans and the Pharisees were taking all that people had (two taxes, religious and imperial), and the Pharisees were going around branding people as sinners.
Today, the left is acting like it's some kinda crime to want to be religious. It's not. It's part of your personal rights to work, worship, and shop where you want. But the current left doesn't want personal rights. This is EXACTLY why they are too extreme. It's also why they are hypocrites. The left is okay not wearing masks when it's just them watching. But they play the virtue card when people they've forced by law to wear masks are watching. They want personal rights for themselves but for everyone else to have no rights. They are snobs.

Politics had little to do with Jesus' teachings. His disciples include Zealots and tax collectors. His followers included both the wealthy and the poor. He ministered to both people with great power socially and those with no power.
Jesus focused on how the INDIVIDUAL should live his life. Neither the poor or the rich should be obsessed with money. He taught forgiveness of each other. Each individual is important to God. Show humility in your life. Most of all worship, trust in and delight in God.
People like James and other basketball players are not "oppressed". Instead, they are pampared by society. Likewise, a hard working man is not an " oppressor " simply because his skin is white.
Jesus taught people to develop character in their lives.

He did, did he?

Tell me, Neal...assuming his ministry actually occurred and is accurately reported, what do you suppose to be the most important thing Jesus taught during his ministry?

Give me a chapter and verse on it, please.

Right, that's what I said.

Jesus has both the left and right claim him, but actually he's pretty all over the political spectrum. He was a religious leader NOT a political one.

Not here to help with the socialist utopia.

Not here to free the Jews from the Romans.

Not here to oust Joe Biden, even though many of his policies target Christianity.

Lebron James? Yeah the "oppressor/oppressed" narrative is a very un-Christian one. It has everything to do with power and nothing to do with Loving each other.


White people get told they are privileged, but this is their houses in some of rural America.

What is emphasized is that Jesus will come again (as Revelation 3:20 mentions) to knock on the doors of his Church, and as Jesus said, even now it happens. No seriously, even now Christians like me are finding many churches "lukewarm", supposedly welcoming of everyone but they tell you to go away if you're not wearing a mask or got the vaccine. These "churches" it has nothing to do with most of them being left of center (some churches on the right got caught up in the frenzy too), and everything to do with them not doing as Jesus asked, to value God and each other over their fear of death. And no, this isn't something people can excuse by saying that making people wear masks is being considerate. I can tell you firsthand exactly how it feels going into a building and being the only one not wearing a mask. Either you reject Jesus because he does things like not wash his hands and not follow your science, or you love Jesus and love other people. Those who pretend to love Jesus but focus on the manmade laws will have him leave during the service. This is true whether you are hardcore right or left or wherever on the political spectrum.

Love other people. It's that simple. You might not always trust them but love them anyway. My familt are not pro-immigrant. Never have been. We see immigration as a whole mess of problems including sex trade and people just coming to mooch on welfare. But one year for Thanksgiving, we invited these Pinoy (Filipino) couple, one of Mom's coworkers at her teaching job, who was going to get a raw deal due to not having all her work forms straight. She'd basically worked the whole year and was gonna get stiffed financially. We couldn't help her that much (we we might have been able to, but I dunno how much finances we had), but we invited them over. They brought some of their food to share a turkey dinner with us. One of the better Thanksgivings I've had, even though other family decided to be too busy that year.

He did, he did.

Here you go.

John 18:36

This is not the most important teaching, but it demonstrates that Jesus's core teaching was not a political one.

So what did Jesus say that was most important? Well, he didn't. Actions speak louder than words. He died on the cross, not just for me, but for you there, Frank Apisa. If that is really your name. These internet handles. I keep expecting farmerman to have a cape and a pitchfork.

I suppose when you've died on the cross, you can be like "See? No big deal, Jesus." But from where I stand, this is a super big deal.

As for his most important teaching, that's a bit like holding a feast of all the foods you personally like and asking you to pick the one you want to eat everyday. We've got a list here of key teachings.
https://www.compellingtruth.org/Jesus-teaching.html
If I had to say, though, he seemed to be fond of quoting Hosea 6:6 (such as in Matthew 9:13), "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."