Strange how you have to lie so much to try to justify the contradictions in your bible.
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
... say that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and does not believe in asking or accepting a ransom.
Quote:I did not crucify Jesus. Jesus chose to allow the Jewish elders and Romans to crucify him to fulfill the laws of atonement he had established. The freedom of choice is explained to Pilate by Jesus Himself.If you can put your unrighteousness onto an innocent man, so that you might escape your just reward, you show how your religion had corrupted your moral senseQuote:Jesus is not a liar.11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority [c]over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” 12 As a result of this Pilate [d]made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, “If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a king [e]opposes Caesar.”Quote:Jesus did not break the tenants, through his merciful death, He fulfilled them. His purpose in life is to make you perfect so you (and everyone else) can have an eternal relationship with Him. All you have to do is believe He can do it for you by the cross and His resurrection.You seem to forget how many moral Jewish tenets Jesus, a Jew, would have to break to do as you say he did.Quote:Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their [p]minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the [q]Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance [r]for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed [s]in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”Quote:Mathew5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.Quote:If you honestly ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind as suggested in the bold print above it will be like the old hymnal "Amazing Grace" which stated,"I once was blind and now I see." If a person refuses to open one's mind and submit one's will to Jesus', he will continue to live in darkness.Romans:12 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
I did not invent this, I believe and have attempted to submit my will accordingly.
Quote:. More brain does not mean creative intelligence. Look at whales for instance, they don't even contemplate these issues.By changing the way our mouths and mostly jaws formed, which allowed the room for our brains to expand.
Wouldn't you say it is very coincidental that "evolution" changed the shape of our jaw and skull to house a brain that can create and a mouth that can speak?
Looks kind of thought out and planned to me. Evolution seems to have the characteristics of an intelligent person.
Would you agree that is a logical conclusion?
I think the fact of believing That is part of something that few understand. How valuable are we to God? It is incredible that love
If Jesus died for our sins, why is he still living?
Quote:So punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is justice to you is it?Quote:Jesus is the body and word of God the Father. God allowed Pilate and the high priests to have authority over him and his life. True love is always exhibited by freely sacrificing for another. No greater thing can a man do than give his life for another. That decision should not be taken lightly because all life is sacred but, a Christian believes the resurrection is coming.John 19:9 “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate *said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority [c]over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
Very valid point you bring up, that it's possible to see pride in the Christian point of view of God dying in our place.
However I would like to also bring up the point that, man does not like God, if it were up to us, we'd leave him out of the picture. This leads me to believe in the bible being the word of God, because it says things that man would never come up with on his own.
If we were truly prideful, we would not write about someone else (God) dying for us, we would take pride in our lives and either say there is no need for a savior or that we'd 'save ourselves'
But as humans there is a deep connection to mercy and forgiveness and that's where Christ comes in. If we are not good enough to die for our own sins, who is? We need a perfect sacrifice to make us perfect, however this still was not our idea, take a look at Jesus' disciple Peter when Jesus said he'd go to the cross- "From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you." But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
Matthew 16:21-23 ESV
So you see, Peter (a human), wheb Christ brought up his sacrifice, told Jesus, far be it that this happen, but Jesus (from God's perspective) said get behind me Satan for you mind not the things of God.
Throughout the bible we see a theme of God caring about us enough that though we did not deserve or earn it, wanted to make us part of his kingdom and part of his life, but if that life is perfect than we need a perfect sacrifice to take our place and make up the difference that we cannot. Someone to give us a new heart and mind so that we could see from God's point of view, and not our own- "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
Ezekiel 36:27 ESV
So you see Christ is the sacrifice we needed that would give us this new heart and this new spirit and way of living, on own our, our old hearts and spirits seek not to do the things of God, but when our old man is broken we see the need for newness and God shows us he is there to give that to us.
In conclusion, on the topic of Christ and pride, it's not human pride that came up with the idea of sacrifice but rather God's genrsoity that offers this gift to us - "everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."
Revelation 13:8 ESV
In this verse it demonstrates the love and foresight of God before he made anything, had the idea of Christ's sacrifice in mind already to bring us back to him and seal us with his perfect love and perfection for all of eternity...
DL-Jesus is God to you is he?
If so, can God die?
Me-The debate over whether Jesus and God are one and the same is long and ongoing. Some say yes, some say no. My feeling personally is that Jesus and God are two entities yet they both have the exact same spirit, the same essence. Jesus seems to say when you are looking at me you are looking at the father. (John 14:6-12) I believe he is saying that he is acting in the exact manner that his father would. To know Jesus is to know God. The bible says Jesus left the kingdom of God to become as one of us. (Phil 2: 5-8) He may have been the son of God, but he came into this world as one of us. (John 1:14)
DL-Is Jesus dead right now? If not, then there was no true sacrifice was there?
Me- Jesus is not dead. The bible tells us so. The bible says the wages of sin is death. Jesus did not sin, yet, as one of us, he died as men do. Because he did not sin he was not deserving of death and so he was raised up from the dead. Still he'd suffered and died violently. That wasn't fair or just. Did he suffer and die so unjustly for nothing? No, Jesus was owed something. He could have chosen vengence and he would have been justified in doing so, but he didn't do that. Instead he chose us. He offered his life to pay the wages of ours sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)
DL-Give a listen to this and read the quotes below and come back and we can chat as then you will know why I do not go against the morality and wisdom in the quotes I put.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
DL-The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Me- The above bible verses sound like they are just saying a person will bear the consequences of their own actions, not someone else's.
DL-Remember that Jesus was a Jew and that the Jews rejected him as their savior.
Me- The Jews were expecting a warrior messiah who would vanquish all their enemies, not this Jesus who told them to love their enemies. Their loss is our gain, even so not all rejected him. Quite a few Jews admired him and some(the apostles for instance) became followers. It was mankind that hated him and killed him. It is man (from all walks of life) that continues to kill his spirit in us.
DL-Do you have two children? Would you punish the innocent one instead of the guilty one?
Me- You have yet to define what standards a God would use to determine innocense and guilt without drawing from your own ideas of good and evil. Some people don't believe in God. Well Ok, God doesn't force people to believe. Many who do believe in God accept the belief that there is a righteous and just presence in the universe and we can put our faith in that presence/God even if we don't understand why things happen as they do.
DL-We are all children of God in your dogma. We are all sons of God. If you will not punish your innocent son instead of the guilty one, what makes you think God would punish his innocent son instead of his guilty son?
How would the victims of the guilty get closure if the innocent are punished instead of the guilty?
Me- God isn't punishing his son. Death is meted out as the punishment for sin. Jesus spared us. He's the only one who could do it because he was perfect, he did not sin and did not have to die for his own sins. He did it because he loves us that much.
I didn't look at the youtube video you posted. I looked at this one instead.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1RuyPAIwK8
I think you posted this link before. It appeared to be on the same subject- Bishop Shelby Spong talking about how Jesus did not die for our sins. I agree with most of what Bishop Spong says, but I believe Jesus died for our sins.
So here are a few notes I made from the video.
Bishop Spong mentions something about how some interpret the bible as God demanding the death of a son as a ransom for our souls. That question is asked a lot on this forum. Would you kill your son? Bishop Spong goes on to say that Jesus accepted his death on the cross as his destiny. Bishop Spong says we are not responsible for Jesus's death so then it would appear, according to Bishop Spong, that God did not kill his son but Jesus gave his life willingly in acceptance of his destiny. For this purpose I was born. (I John3:8) What destiny was that? According to Bishop Spong to show the world the glory of God's love, to absorb the hatred and the abuse of this world and return it as love and forgiveness. Jesus' life was a portrait of one who gives his life for others. Jesus's life wasn't about surviving but about becoming free enough to give our life away as he did. To love even while his life is being taken from him. That takes sacrifice. (John 15;13)
The bible says there is a war going on that we cannot see between angels and demons. Eph.6:10-18 In the devil's arsenal are hate, murder, mockery, torture, illness, terror, anger, and other evil intentions.
In God's arsenal there is love. How can a person, how can God fight all that evil just with love? Jesus did it, not with vengence, not with hatred, not with anger, but with love. He shows us how. He overcame the world. (John 16:33,https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Overcoming-The-World/ )
Bishop Spong says that people are not born into sin, but are born incomplete. They are not rescued, but are empowered. He says that people need to accept who they are and grow in the meaning and understanding of faith. To be everything they can be, to have life and have it more abundantly. To that I say amen. 1 John 4:4 - Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. Christianity is not about guilt and religion, but about becoming whole. Bishop Spong says he does not like religious people. Jesus disliked many of the religious people of his day calling them vipers and hippocrits. Bishop Spong seems to be saying that Jesus is trying to teach us how to be human. Jesus was denied by humanity and betrayed by humanity , forsaken , tortured and killed yet he didn't waiver in his love and forgiveness. This is strength that comes from weakness. To let all the hurt of this world do it's worst and not to return it in kind, but to absorb it giving oneself away even to it to the point of death.
As I said earlier, I believe Jesus did die for our sins. His death satisfies the demands of justice and righteousness that is the cost of sin (Roman's 6:23). There is a strength in love that many do not understand. When we accept Jesus' life for our own, when we seek to become like him, when we give ourselves away to love and forgiveness we are empowered with Gods' love. Jesus lives in us and we in him.
Bishop Spong doesn't like what he sees as groveling and he cites all those times during the liturgy when we ask God for mercy. He doesn't feel that is empowering. I think he has that wrong. Jesus tells the story of a publican who went into the temple to pray. He humbled himself asking God to forgive him. Also in the temple was a Pharisee (usually an overly zealous religious person with a holier than thou personality) who looked at the publican and said thank God I am not like him. Yet Jesus said it was the publican who left justified not the Pharisee. (Luke 18:9-14) Asking God for forgiveness humbles us. Praying for mercy is expressing our need for God in our lives. It helps to keep us from thinking of ourselves as greater than we are. It is especially for those people who think that they are somehow holier than others. My old minister used to ask people, "What makes you so special?" when they started to act that way. Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. We need to ask for mercy that Jesus may come into our hearts and empower us, to show us how to love more fully, to have life and have it more abundantly.
Greatest I am wrote:
Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?
Not really. I'd prefer to call it silly: dying is a human term and concept. It seems patently foolish to take that concept and apply it to a God. Why would dying be something permanent and/or sacrificial for a God? Sure, we would like it to be. Sure, Christianity is build around this concept.
But I find the idea that 'death', such as we define it, could apply to a God, rather ludicrous.
So I'd say the arrogance lies in trying to try and define the actions of a God in human terms, even if I also acknowledge that there is no other way for humans to do so: what other terms are there to use?
Quote:
... say that God prefers repentance to sacrifice and does not believe in asking or accepting a ransom.
Does he? Does he really prefer repentance to sacrifice? If so, can you explain the story of Jephthah to me?
You ignore that your unrighteousness is your to pay for, not an innocent victim.
Quote:. I agree that’s why I believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because God is just. If I will be resurrected and made perfect, it is because God has sacrificial love for me.You ignore that your unrighteousness is your to pay for, not an innocent victim.
