30
   

Is it egotistical to think that a God would die for you?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2017 11:54 am
@brianjakub,
our brains use basically the same thing that bonobo use for decision making and invention. We just have more of it.

There was an old science fiction TV show in which this episode traced the extension and "gridification" of our land line communication. It was constantly growing and neuralizing until one day, with the closing of one more neural net. The phone system was capable of thought.
Was this phone extension a product of randomized neural networking or merely intelligent "design"?
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2017 02:47 pm
@auroreII,
auroreII wrote:

You mention that there is a difference between God and human. You say forgiveness in humans facilitates closure which is healing for the person who forgives and I agree with that. When I asked you to tell me what do you consider a moral God? You said, "One who punishes the guilty and not the innocent". "Guilty" and "innocent" are not very specific. I could probably go out on the street and ask people what makes someone guilty and what makes them innocent and get a hundred different answers. That point is argued in the courts all the time. Society as a whole develops their standards for what constitutes criminal behavior and what doesn't, but that can differ from society to society. Even so some believe there are universal truths. The bible gives us two commandments, 1. that we love God and 2. that we love our neighbors as ourselves. The bible says on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. According to this it seems that good and evil are determined by how we ourselves would want to be treated. (Love that new catch phrase I've been hearing on TV, "We are how we treat each other".) The bible says that God is love. So to love God I guess would be to love love, to have love in your heart. The bible says that God does not see as man sees, but he can see into a person's heart and look at their motives.


Wouldn't justice, in order to be truly just, require that the guilty suffer the same consequences as the one who was hurt, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth? That would only be fair, right? Yet it's obvious that this would not make things better. It would just make everyone eyeless and toothless. Yet can we just ignore justice? Can God? Christians believe that justice does exist in the world. They believe that some day there will come a day of reckoning when justice will be served. Yet we, being imperfect people, how can any of us hope to stand on that day? God made a way. Our sins have been paid for. Jesus, because he was perfect in all his ways, born not of imperfect man , but of God, and not deserving of death, came to take our punishment and die in our place that we may have life everlasting. He didn't have to, but he loves us that much. When we accept Jesus as our savior we give up our rights to justice for something better. There is justice in the world. We have closure in Jesus' death. There is love in the world. We can forgive because we are forgiven. Can there ever be love if there is no forgiveness?


Jesus is God to you is he?
If so, can God die? Is Jesus dead right now? If not, then there was no true sacrifice was there?

Give a lkisten to this and read the quotes below and come back and we can chat as then you will know why I do not go against the morality and wisdom in the quotes I put.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKNup9gEBdg


Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

Remember that Jesus was a Jew and that the Jews rejected him as their savior.

Do you have two children? Would you punish the innocent one instead of the guilty one?

We are all children of God in your dogma. We are all sons of God. If you will not punish your innocent son instead of the guilty one, what makes you think God would punish his innocent son instead of his guilty son?

How would the victims of the guilty get closure if the innocent are punished instead of the guilty?

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2017 02:51 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
It doesn't need to say anything about "creative thought." That's all part and parcel of evolution.


A chimpanzee can't even understand this conversation. They don 't understand anything more about life than their grandparents.

Humans have been inventors from day one. How did evolution arrange atoms that produce the creative thought coming from a human mind.


By changing the way our mouths and mostly jaws are formed, which allowed the room for our brains to expand.

I have no link but I am sure you can find the information if you really want it.

Regards
DL
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Nov, 2017 08:43 am
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
By changing the way our mouths and mostly jaws formed, which allowed the room for our brains to expand.
. More brain does not mean creative intelligence. Look at whales for instance, they don't even contemplate these issues.

Wouldn't you say it is very coincidental that "evolution" changed the shape of our jaw and skull to house a brain that can create and a mouth that can speak?

Looks kind of thought out and planned to me. Evolution seems to have the characteristics of an intelligent person.

Would you agree that is a logical conclusion?
RobertoNic
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2017 07:21 pm
@farmerman,
I think the fact of believing That is part of something that few understand. How valuable are we to God? It is incredible that love
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2017 08:17 pm
@Greatest I am,
If Jesus died for our sins, why is he still living?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2017 12:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Because he is God, He can do that for our sins and resurrect Himself if he wants to. He didn't need to, he did it because he loves us and all mistakes must be paid for so justice would exist. God is good and justice is good
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2017 02:17 pm
@brianjakub,
You don’t understand the term “dead/died.” There was no sacrifice. He just gave up a very short period of living. In god’s life, that’s not even a blink of a eye.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2017 02:37 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
There was an old science fiction TV show in which this episode traced the extension and "gridification" of our land line communication. It was constantly growing and neuralizing until one day, with the closing of one more neural net. The phone system was capable of thought.
Was this phone extension a product of randomized neural networking or merely intelligent "design"?
Intelligent design.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Nov, 2017 02:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I agree. Death is different to God than tom us. Death has no power over Him but, He still experienced the suffering of a crucifixion and the three days of death as it was prophesied.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2017 07:21 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
By changing the way our mouths and mostly jaws formed, which allowed the room for our brains to expand.
. More brain does not mean creative intelligence. Look at whales for instance, they don't even contemplate these issues.

Wouldn't you say it is very coincidental that "evolution" changed the shape of our jaw and skull to house a brain that can create and a mouth that can speak?

Looks kind of thought out and planned to me. Evolution seems to have the characteristics of an intelligent person.

Would you agree that is a logical conclusion?


I can agree that it looks like that, because if it did not, we would not be here to discuss it.

That is a far cry from saying that we were designed to be what we are from a sentient source.

If you are correct, why does your God not take a bow, instead of taking a powder?

You might also wonder why your creator would create these wonderful gifts for pregnant women.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&feature=player_embedded

Oh wait. God only creates good and that evil must be man made. Right?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2017 07:22 pm
@RobertoNic,
RobertoNic wrote:

I think the fact of believing That is part of something that few understand. How valuable are we to God? It is incredible that love


Yep. That is why scriptures say that the vast majority of us loved ones will end in hell.

That is incredible hate, not love.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2017 07:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

If Jesus died for our sins, why is he still living?


Exactly. A death sacrifice, to be a real sacrifice, has to stay dead.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2017 07:25 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Because he is God, He can do that for our sins and resurrect Himself if he wants to. He didn't need to, he did it because he loves us and all mistakes must be paid for so justice would exist. God is good and justice is good


So punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is justice to you is it?

You might want to try convincing secular law of your novel view of justice.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Dec, 2017 07:27 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

I agree. Death is different to God than tom us. Death has no power over Him but, He still experienced the suffering of a crucifixion and the three days of death as it was prophesied.


More lies.

Jesus told the other crucified on that they would be in heaven that very day.

Why do you believe any of the contradictions in your book of lies?

Regards
DL
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Dec, 2017 04:46 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
So punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is justice to you is it?
Quote:
John 19:9 “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate *said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority [c]over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
Jesus is the body and word of God the Father. God allowed Pilate and the high priests to have authority over him and his life. True love is always exhibited by freely sacrificing for another. No greater thing can a man do than give his life for another. That decision should not be taken lightly because all life is sacred but, a Christian believes the resurrection is coming.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Dec, 2017 04:51 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:


More lies.

Jesus told the other crucified on that they would be in heaven that very day.

Why do you believe any of the contradictions in your book of lies?
When a man dies in a state of grace he sleeps till he goes to heaven. To the man on the cross next to Jesus he slept through the three days till Jesus rose again. To him it seemed like the same day. Do you think Jesus should have explained that to him while they hung on the cross?
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Dec, 2017 10:40 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
So punishing the innocent instead of the guilty is justice to you is it?
Quote:
John 19:9 “Where are You from?” But Jesus gave him no answer. 10 So Pilate *said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” 11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority [c]over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
Jesus is the body and word of God the Father. God allowed Pilate and the high priests to have authority over him and his life. True love is always exhibited by freely sacrificing for another. No greater thing can a man do than give his life for another. That decision should not be taken lightly because all life is sacred but, a Christian believes the resurrection is coming.


True. They believe lies.

You seem to forget how many moral Jewish tenets Jesus, a Jew, would have to break to do as you say he did.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

If you can put your unrighteousness onto an innocent man, so that you might escape your just reward, you show how your religion had corrupted your moral sense.

Regards
DL
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Dec, 2017 10:42 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:


More lies.

Jesus told the other crucified on that they would be in heaven that very day.

Why do you believe any of the contradictions in your book of lies?
When a man dies in a state of grace he sleeps till he goes to heaven. To the man on the cross next to Jesus he slept through the three days till Jesus rose again. To him it seemed like the same day. Do you think Jesus should have explained that to him while they hung on the cross?


More lies.

Strange how you have to lie so much to try to justify the contradictions in your bible.

Regards
DL
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Dec, 2017 01:50 pm
@Greatest I am,
Quote:
If you can put your unrighteousness onto an innocent man, so that you might escape your just reward, you show how your religion had corrupted your moral sense
I did not crucify Jesus. Jesus chose to allow the Jewish elders and Romans to crucify him to fulfill the laws of atonement he had established. The freedom of choice is explained to Pilate by Jesus Himself.
Quote:
11 Jesus answered, “You would have no authority [c]over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” 12 As a result of this Pilate [d]made efforts to release Him, but the Jews cried out saying, “If you release this Man, you are no friend of Caesar; everyone who makes himself out to be a king [e]opposes Caesar.”
Jesus is not a liar.
Quote:
You seem to forget how many moral Jewish tenets Jesus, a Jew, would have to break to do as you say he did.
Jesus did not break the tenants, through his merciful death, He fulfilled them. His purpose in life is to make you perfect so you (and everyone else) can have an eternal relationship with Him. All you have to do is believe He can do it for you by the cross and His resurrection.
Quote:
Luke 24:44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their [p]minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the [q]Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance [r]for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed [s]in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.”
Quote:
Mathew5:17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not [h]the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever [j]keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Quote:
Romans:12 For all who have sinned [f]without the Law will also perish [g]without the Law, and all who have sinned [h]under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers [j]of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers [l]of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have [m]the Law do [n]instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having [o]the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
If you honestly ask the Holy Spirit to open your mind as suggested in the bold print above it will be like the old hymnal "Amazing Grace" which stated,"I once was blind and now I see." If a person refuses to open one's mind and submit one's will to Jesus', he will continue to live in darkness.

I did not invent this, I believe and have attempted to submit my will accordingly.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.07 seconds on 01/26/2025 at 11:41:03