5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:07 pm
@igm,
And where does it follow from such a thought experiment that ships do not exist?

There is no such thing as sound philosophy, no rules or standard procedures through which you could assess soundness in philosophy. There is only useful and useless philosophies. The question you should ask yourself is: What's the use of denying the existance of ships and cars?
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:12 pm
@JLNobody,
Thanks JL. Yeah, I've known that about ego-self, but I can't say that I'd knowingly want to reject it from my life. To much fun to be had being alive lol
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 04:16 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz do you agree that if reality needs be observed by a mind to be real, at least 1 original mind must exist so that the reality we observe now come to being ? Yes or no ?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 05:01 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
No.
I don't see why reality had to come into being. Maybe it just is.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 05:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Garbled gobbly gook!


Let's start a club of posters unaware of what this discussion is about...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 05:41 pm
@Cyracuz,
It took you a while to get a no out of your mouth...
Very well then your premiss that Mind creates/observes reality no longer stands !

If reality just is and no creation/observation was needed then reality is objectively independent from observation even if all there ever was out there was a single mind...such mind was not created nor observed by any other mind to come into being, and yet exists itself objective reality...your own words Cyr thank you for contradicting yourself...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:26 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Let's start with a different premise about "belief."

Homo sapiens evolved from the great apes, and the great apes evolved some 22 million years ago.

Reality and belief existed long before modern humans came on the scene; it's only that earlier life forms didn't have the extent of language and ability of history to translate what they were. Even the great apes had "reality and belief." Just because they couldn't describe it by human language, they were based on their genes and environment. They learned through evolution what was dangerous and what was safe. That became their reality and belief.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Jun, 2013 06:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I have nothing against your premiss Cic, in fact I like it...had the premiss of Cyracuz be like yours and this debate would be close ages ago...the premiss I brought up is in direct consequence of Cyracuz hypothesis...do you understand why it is so ?
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 12:24 am
@JLNobody,
Are you suggesting that "reality" is a concept which figures in non-human communication ? I do not mean anthropomorhically applicable to non-humans by humans (as in birds luring predators away from their nests).

I would argue that the word "reality" only arises in everyday transactions where there are possible alternatives as to "what is the case", and that "is-ness" is always functionally contextual or paradigmatic.

Consider an couple example to illustrate the point.

I buy a car from a third party. On day one the "reality" of my ownership is undisputed hence the concept never surfaces. Suppose two days later the police call and inform me the car was stolen. Only then does the issue of "realty of ownership" becomes an issue, Or alternatively, two days later, the car rolls off a cliff and the "reality of ownership" takes on a different angle.

What these incidents have in common is that my relationship with a thing has changed.

But isn't such change in relationship with all things inevitable according to the second law of thermodynamics (perhaps another human concept) ? What "IS the case" is always temporary. And is such a conclusion "the ultimate reality" ? ...Not if we consider the second law to be a human construct about the nature of a thing we call "order ", for surely "order" is always contextual to human purpose too. Note too the religious claim/need for a "permanent deity" to fix their reality.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 03:19 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Let's start with a different premise about "belief."

Homo sapiens evolved from the great apes, and the great apes evolved some 22 million years ago.

Reality and belief existed long before modern humans came on the scene; it's only that earlier life forms didn't have the extent of language and ability of history to translate what they were. Even the great apes had "reality and belief." Just because they couldn't describe it by human language, they were based on their genes and environment. They learned through evolution what was dangerous and what was safe. That became their reality and belief.


Well...except that you ideas about where Homo Sapiens came from are completely at odds with modern science's notions...

...the fact is that modern science also is pretty sure that before great apes...or even one cell animals...there was a molten planet with no life whatsoever on it.

Are you saying there was no REALITY at that time?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 05:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
...don't complicate Frank, his description is fair enough...I'm certain he didn't meant like there was no before great Apes and that he knows about a common Ancestor Ramapithecus...notice he thought I was trying to defend the original mind thing...he didn't notice I was testing Cyr hypothesis...
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 06:05 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

And where does it follow from such a thought experiment that ships do not exist?

There is no such thing as sound philosophy, no rules or standard procedures through which you could assess soundness in philosophy. There is only useful and useless philosophies. The question you should ask yourself is: What's the use of denying the existance of ships and cars?

Where did I say they don't exist? Keep up or keep quiet...
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:11 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Very well then your premiss that Mind creates/observes reality no longer stands !


Easy now... First off, that premise was never MY premise. I have never stated that this is how it is.
You just assume I think so because I question your premise about objectivity.

The reason I said NO was that the statement you presented for me to answer yes/no held the assumption that reality began once. We do not know this.

Nothing is proven yet.
You need to be more precise if you want to play this game.

If you had said "IF reality depends on observers, then at least one observer must exist", I would have answered yes to that one.

Quote:
your own words Cyr thank you for contradicting yourself...


I am not. That's your game.
Lol. What a half-wit..
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:22 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Again, Fil, I HAVE NOT PRESENTED ANY HYPOTHESIS.

The only thing I have been doing is pointing out assumptions in your "logic".
From this you assume many things about what I believe.

Both in reading and in writing, you show the accuracy and precision of a drunken monkey with a keyboard.
I say one thing, and you understand something completely different.
You make an assertion, and it doesn't even mean what you think it means...
It's ridiculous. The definition of "objective" is a prime example of what I mean.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:32 am
@Cyracuz,
Your hypothesis was the idea that reality may need minds to be real...go it ?
Whether you notice it or not I show it logicically inconsistent...

Now if you will excuse me I got better things to do then indulge in dumb talking...
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:46 am
If some idiot came to this thread claiming there needs be a hammer banging in a wall for reality to come into being then the path to disprove such idiocy would have to be by starting to accept the premiss and test it logically...

...people have been so deeply stupid all along the thread they didn't get the mind hypothesis is not my idea...I was testing its soundness logically...or do I have to explain (I just did) what the **** means to prove something is logically inconsistent ???

First damn step is accepting the premisses and test if they are self consistent !
...******* morons...one can't avoid but loose temper with this **** !!!
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:47 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
That was not my hypothesis...
It was a direct response to a statement you made. Do you recall?
You said something about "no matter what we can know about it".
To which I gave the objection you now refer to as my hypothesis.

But I'm still waiting for those statements I only had to answer yes or no to.
The first you offered failed, because it held more than one proposition.
I could answer 'yes' to the first part, but must answer 'no' to the second, since we cannot know that reality began once.

So please try harder. And be precise!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:50 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
You said something about "no matter what we can know about it".

Exactly, to which you replied with the counter of observation ! Those who can KNOW ABOUT IT need be AGENTS MINDS thus MINDS need exist prior to reality ! Which is logically inconsistent !
Can't you deduce a single line of your own assumptions ??? are you on acids ?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:55 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Perhaps that is the difference between a belief and a delusion. If you believe something and it is proven wrong, you either adjust your beliefs or become delusional.

There's no difference between a belief and a delusion because...

A belief will 'always' be wrong and 'unproven' so it will always be - to some degree - delusional.

Therefore all belief is delusional. We can still function even though we are delusional... but it's messy.

Can you show me a belief that is 'right' and 'proven'?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Jun, 2013 07:57 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
First damn step is accepting the premisses and test if they are self consistent !


This! This is what I am doing with your assertion "there is a state of affairs no matter what we can know about it".

The premise "no matter what we can know about it" is not self-consistent, as you put it.
This is my only and entire objection to all your ranting in this thread. So far you have failed to address it, only adding more baseless assumptions to cover your own ass.

Quote:
...******* morons...one can't avoid but loose temper with this **** !!!


See, now, you're the moron. You have demonstrated that conclusively.
Need I remind you of that lovely post where you said that if reality is subjective, that proves that it is objective? Lol!
 

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