5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 08:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
I like that. At the risk of belaboring the obvious:

If I say that I don't do partial differential equations in my head while I'm driving, would it be reasonable for someone to ask whether I knew that I don't do partial differential equations in my head while I'm driving, or whether I just believed that I didn't?

If I say that I don't believe in gods and someone claimed that I just believed that I didn't believe, but really did believe because I used the word 'god' in a sentence, which of those two people are more likely to be deluded?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 09:26 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

igm wrote:

Neither... please explain how it must be one or the other? You will have to 'spell out' your accusation.

What's to explain? You state beliefs and then you say you have no beliefs. What would you call that?

You're wrong. You'll need to quote me saying I have a belief but I have no beliefs. Just stating that, is not sufficient because you may have made a mistake or taken it out of context or failed to read my previous posts. I say I haven't you must now prove that I did... or not it's up to you.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:05 am
This discussion is getting to the point of disbelief!

Quote:
"I know for a fact I don't have beliefs."


In other words, you know (which is a belief), you don't have beliefs.
A total contradiction in terms.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:13 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
You're wrong. You'll need to quote me saying I have a belief but I have no beliefs.

Easily done. You wrote:

"I use some other's beliefs but I don't believe in them e.g. If I examine all the parts of a car I don't find a car or car-ness but I can drive the car... I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found... all phenomena are like this. I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs..."

So there are two statements of belief right there: (1) that you don't believe there is a truly existent car; and (2) that all phenomena are like this. You precede and follow those statements by saying that you don't believe in others' beliefs and that you're not trapped by beliefs. Yet it's clear you're just as trapped by beliefs as anyone else. You're just far more hypocritical about it than most people.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:17 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If I have to explain that to you...you will not understand it.

Or maybe I will debunk it... and we don't want that, right? :-)


I am not an evader. If I have to explain that to you...you probably would not understand it. If, however, it makes you happy to think that I actually am afraid you might "debunk" what I know or do not know...go for it. I love it when people are happy.



Quote:
Quote:
If you think I have any beliefs...why not name three...and I will discuss them. Then you can name three more...and we will discuss them. And so on.
You already said you don't want to talk about whether you believe the world to exist, or why you 'know' you don't have beliefs. So if I were to do what you suggest, you will probably evade that discussion too.




I am not sure where I said I don't want to talk about whether I "believe" anything...and I strongly suspect you are interpreting something I said to suit your purposes. But if you want to point out the specific incident, we can discuss it there.

Otherwise...name three things you suppose I "believe"...and we can discuss it.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:18 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If I were to say: I have no bananas in any of the shoes I am wearing, would you actually ask me how I know that for a fact?

Just something to consider while I am shopping with the aunts.


Don't forget to buy bananas.

If you read this before you head off, maybe you can ponder this question: is your mind or mental space or self or whatever you call it, like a pair of shoes, or a room, or a backyard? Isn't it more like a landscape, only partially explored, and partially covered in fog?

In other words, can you explore your own mental self just as easily as you can explore your tatoos?


Shopping went like a breeze...so I'm back earlier than I expected.

You were trying to be too cute here...and you failed.

Say what you actually meant to say and I will reply.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:19 am
@FBM,
FBM wrote:

I like that. At the risk of belaboring the obvious:

If I say that I don't do partial differential equations in my head while I'm driving, would it be reasonable for someone to ask whether I knew that I don't do partial differential equations in my head while I'm driving, or whether I just believed that I didn't?

If I say that I don't believe in gods and someone claimed that I just believed that I didn't believe, but really did believe because I used the word 'god' in a sentence, which of those two people are more likely to be deluded?


Good one, FBM. And right on the mark.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:20 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

This discussion is getting to the point of disbelief!

Quote:
"I know for a fact I don't have beliefs."


In other words, you know (which is a belief), you don't have beliefs.
A total contradiction in terms.


Only for someone with a closed mind. If I know something...I know it. If I estimate something...I estimate it. If I guess something...I guess it.

Only when I "believe" something...do I "believe."

I do not do that. No contradiction here except to someone like you.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
You were trying to be too cute here...and you failed.


Not really. My question is: can you explore your own mental self just as easily as you can explore your shoes? Don't you think you might for instance not be transparent to yourself? That you might hold unconscious beliefs you're not aware of?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:45 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

igm wrote:
You're wrong. You'll need to quote me saying I have a belief but I have no beliefs.

Easily done. You wrote:

"I use some other's beliefs but I don't believe in them e.g. If I examine all the parts of a car I don't find a car or car-ness but I can drive the car... I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found... all phenomena are like this. I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs..."

So there are two statements of belief right there: (1) that you don't believe there is a truly existent car; and (2) that all phenomena are like this. You precede and follow those statements by saying that you don't believe in others' beliefs and that you're not trapped by beliefs. Yet it's clear you're just as trapped by beliefs as anyone else. You're just far more hypocritical about it than most people.

See the blue part above... is say I don't believe... clear enough? It's a negative.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 10:51 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
You were trying to be too cute here...and you failed.


Not really.


Oh, yeah...you really did fail.



Actually, I see three questions there, not one, but who's counting, right!

So let me take them one at a time:

Quote:
can you explore your own mental self just as easily as you can explore your shoes?


I am an introspective person...and always have been. I explore my mental state often...although I will acknowledge that it is much easier to explore my shoes for bananas.



Quote:
Don't you think you might for instance not be transparent to yourself?


Anything is possible...and I acknowledge that at almost every turn. Stop trying to be cute...what is your point?

Quote:

That you might hold unconscious beliefs you're not aware of?


Ahhh...that comes close.

If you think I have some "unconscious beliefs"...name three and we can discuss them.

joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 11:22 am
@igm,
igm wrote:
See the blue part above... is say I don't believe... clear enough? It's a negative.

And it's also irrelevant. Saying "I don't believe in the existence of X" is the same as saying "I believe in the non-existence of X." You're not stating a non-belief, you're stating a belief. But then since you apparently agree that you stated at least one belief (that "all phenomena are like this"), it really doesn't matter. You asked for evidence, and I provided it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 11:30 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

igm wrote:
See the blue part above... is say I don't believe... clear enough? It's a negative.

And it's also irrelevant. Saying "I don't believe in the existence of X" is the same as saying "I believe in the non-existence of X." You're not stating a non-belief, you're stating a belief. But then since you apparently agree that you stated at least one belief (that "all phenomena are like this"), it really doesn't matter. You asked for evidence, and I provided it.



@igm

I hope you see what a bunch of nonsense Joe is spouting here.

Saying I do not believe in the existence of X....IS NOT SAYING I believe in the non existence of X.

One can deny a belief in X...and in non-x. And most people with a brain can easily see that.

Let's take the question of gods, for instance.

I can logically say: There are people who "believe" there are gods. I am not one of them...I do not "believe" gods exist.

At the same time, I can logically say: There are people who "believe" there are no gods. I am not one of them either. I do not "believe" there are no gods.

What is being said there...and which Joe wants to pretend cannot be said...

...is that there is no "belief" in either direction.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 11:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you think I have some "unconscious beliefs"...name three and we can discuss them.


The point I am trying to make is: I seriously doubt you have the kind of solid empirical reasons to conclude that you know for a fact that you hold no belief. In order to state this in confidence, you would need to be totally transparent to yourself, i.e. you would need to be able to explore your mind as you go about exploring what’s inside your shoes and checking there’s no bananas in there. But we have good reasons to believe that the human mind actively resists introspection, and lies to itself all too often when touching upon some sensitive issues… You seem to be left with a somewhat naïve, pre-Freudian paradigm about how much we know about ourselves.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I will not accuse you of having any accidental beliefs, but I am curious about how the "no-belief" approach works in social relationships.
Sometimes you have to place your faith in other people. You have to believe in them even when they give you reason not to. I guess you could call it confidence and trust, rather than faith and belief. But what would you call it when time and time again confidence and trust were tested, and you still didn't give up?

Let me emphasize, before others jump on this, that I am aware I have taken the words out of the original context of your challenge to name your secret beliefs. I don't think you have any.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:18 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If you think I have some "unconscious beliefs"...name three and we can discuss them.


The point I am trying to make is: I seriously doubt you have the kind of solid empirical reasons to conclude that you know for a fact that you hold no belief. In order to state this in confidence, you would need to be totally transparent to yourself, i.e. you would need to be able to explore your mind as you go about exploring what’s inside your shoes and checking there’s no bananas in there. But we have good reasons to believe that the human mind actively resists introspection, and lies to itself all too often when touching upon some sensitive issues… You seem to be left with a somewhat naïve, pre-Freudian paradigm about how much we know about ourselves.


Name three...or stop the nonsense.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:18 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

igm wrote:
See the blue part above... is say I don't believe... clear enough? It's a negative.

And it's also irrelevant. Saying "I don't believe in the existence of X" is the same as saying "I believe in the non-existence of X." You're not stating a non-belief, you're stating a belief. But then since you apparently agree that you stated at least one belief (that "all phenomena are like this"), it really doesn't matter. You asked for evidence, and I provided it.

Come on! You're playing games... quiet day? Work out what I'm referring to: It's not irrelevant it's relevant. It's not the same i.e. your example. I am stating a non-belief i.e it's the absence of a belief. As I am your conclusion doesn't follow. I noticed the 'apparently' and it shouldn't be apparent. So, joe no evidence whatsoever. Again, come on!
igm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:19 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I do... thanks...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It's not a "closed mind," Frank. It's simple English. As for closed minds, you fit the definition - in English.

You believe I have a "closed mind." That's a belief.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 May, 2013 12:24 pm
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

I will not accuse you of having any accidental beliefs, but I am curious about how the "no-belief" approach works in social relationships.
Sometimes you have to place your faith in other people. You have to believe in them even when they give you reason not to. I guess you could call it confidence and trust, rather than faith and belief. But what would you call it when time and time again confidence and trust were tested, and you still didn't give up?

Let me emphasize, before others jump on this, that I am aware I have taken the words out of the original context of your challenge to name your secret beliefs. I don't think you have any.


There are actions (estimates, guesses, predictions, etc.) that I take every day of my life. I am totally happy with anyone who wants to assign the word "belief" to them...to do so if it makes them happy.

I do not really consider them "beliefs", mostly because I think the word is torturously abused.

My main thrust, as I have indicated time after time after time...is in the area of explanations for the true nature of REALITY.

I HAVE NO BELIEFS WITH REGARD TO THE TRUE NATURE OF REALITY.

Many, many, many people do. Some "believe" there are gods (or a GOD) involved; some "believe" there are no gods; some "believe" there is a non-duality...others "believe" the naive reality equivalent of duality...and so forth.

For all "beliefs" about REALITY...I assign the word "guess."

Others do not agree with me...and that is fine with me.

As for "having confidence" and trust...yup, I do.

Thanks for asking, Cyracuz...and for addresssing the question clearly...and in a civil, respectful way.
 

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