How is this definition of "belief"?

@Frank Apisa,

Yeah, I think you will find a five peso bill in the envelope. Wink

@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Listing every possible manifestation or variety would make a definition stronger, yes, but also very cumbersome.

I don't think a definition has to list every variety. It just has to hold true for every variety.
Your proposal explicitly mentioned phenomena and states. That excludes any belief that defies description in terms of phenomena and states.

Yes, obviously. What I'm asking is if there actually is any type of belief that isn't covered, implicitly or explicitly, by the terms "phenomena" and "states."

Ah. Never mind about that proposed definition. I can see how it would be problematic in other ways.

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@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Yeah, I think you will find a five peso bill in the envelope.

If I used that example with a theist, he/she would suggest that God, being everywhere, is inside the envelope.

I'd prefer the 5 peso note...if there is such a thing as a 5 peso note.

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Cyracuz, are you content with your original definition, or would you like to restate it?

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@Setanta,

I think the definition captures all kinds of belief in that it focuses on an attribute shared by all beliefs; they are about something we relate to but have no facts about. If this holds true, then I am content with the definition.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I'm not sure about 100% certainty

It does not exist. But yes, there's still plenty of certainty left around, just not graded 100%. You can evidently decide stuff and do them, as planned.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I'm not sure about 100% certainty

It does not exist. But yes, there's still plenty of certainty left around, just not graded 100%. You can evidently decide stuff and do them, as planned.

How sure of that are you?

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@Olivier5,

I use some other's beliefs but I don't believe in them e.g. If I examine all the parts of a car I don't find a car or car-ness but I can drive the car... I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found... all phenomena are like this. I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs... I see them for what they are... something that is useful for everyday life. Science isn't too different because phenomena are examined in depth and no belief is held onto for long... it's just a stepping stone... the problem is that those stepping stones will probably arise infinite times in the so-called future.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Olivier: You can evidently decide stuff and do them, as planned.

Frank: How sure of that are you?

Pretty sure. I thought I'd reply to you, and then I did it! See?

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@igm,

Quote:

If I examine all the parts of a car I don't find a car or car-ness but I can drive the car... I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found... all phenomena are like this. I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs... I see them for what they are...

If you hadn't found the car, you probably wouldn't be able to drive it. Every system is composed of elements; doesn't mean the system does not function or exist as a system.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

igm wrote:

I use some other's beliefs but I don't believe in them e.g. If I examine all the parts of a car I don't find a car or car-ness but I can drive the car... I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found... all phenomena are like this. I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs... I see them for what they are... something that is useful for everyday life. Science isn't too different because phenomena are examined in depth and no belief is held onto for long... it's just a stepping stone... the problem is that those stepping stones will probably arise infinite times in the so-called future.

I don't believe we are disagreeing are we?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I'm not sure about 100% certainty

It does not exist. But yes, there's still plenty of certainty left around, just not graded 100%. You can evidently decide stuff and do them, as planned.

How sure are you about the part I enlarged?

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

I don't believe we are disagreeing are we?

It's the car business that bugs me. I believe in the virtue of realism and simplicity. I don’t see philosophy as a futile hobby, or as a rhetorical game. It should be about real life, and it should help us make sense of it. And it should not "dumb you down", so if you ever drove a car or owned a car, you know intuitively what a car is. If your philosophy is unable to help you conceptualize it, it's because your philosophy is weak, not necessarily because your intuition is wrong.

In this particular case, you could fix your philosophy by adding the concept of system. Any system is composed of elements but is more than the sum of its elements. That helps conceptualize what a car, or a clock, or a human body are: more than the sum of their parts.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

You believe in the 'thing in itself' I don't that's the problem... you also don't appear to understand what I'm getting at... that's not a problem... you don't need to.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Olivier: [Absolute certainty] does not exist.

Frank: How sure are you about the part I enlarged?

I am absolutely certain that absolute certainty does not exist. :-)

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@igm,

Quote:

You believe in the 'thing in itself' I don't that's the problem...

I suspect you do believe in the "thing in itself", but are unaware of the extent of your trust in reality.

Like if the car you drive would suddenly disappear into thin air, would you think: "all normal here, it didn't really exist to start with", or would you be surprised?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Patronizing.. I can do without it... thanks! Wink

If I thought you were interested I'd explain... you're not.

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@igm,

I don't think Olivier is patronizing at all! He gave an example that you seem to ignore for its meaning.

If you don't have belief, why are you discussing anything on a2k?

It's a contradiction in term and action.

You believe you don't have belief.

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

If I thought you were interested I'd explain... you're not.

Fine. I am not patronizing you, just expressing my own ideas... Don't let philosophy slow you down. It's only a tool. It should help, not hamper your thinking. If you find yourself unable of making philosophical sense of an everyday experience as simple as driving a car, it’s usually because you’re using the wrong philosophical tools for the task, not because your experience is “fake” or an “illusion”. Personally, I trust my experience more than any philosophy.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

ci and oli I said this...

igm wrote:

I can still live my life just as you do but I am not trapped by beliefs... I see them for what they are... something that is useful for everyday life. Science isn't too different because phenomena are examined in depth and no belief is held onto for long... it's just a stepping stone... the problem is that those stepping stones will probably arise infinite times in the so-called future.

...you are ignoring it and reading too much into what I'm saying or are just unable to understand what I'm saying... fair enough.

2 Replies

How is this definition of "belief"?

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