5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 09:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Guess is not a plausible description of their assumptions and how they arrived at them.


I agree. But you might plausibly call any assertion made based on such assumptions a guess. Another question is whether or not it is possible to exist without assumptions arrived at through imbibing them, as you put it. I know it is possible to shed beliefs. I don't know if I can eradicate all beliefs from my understanding, and I am rather too fond of some of them to try.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 09:45 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If you are saying that I acknowledge that I makes guesses, estimates, and suppositions...YES I DO. Is there anything wrong with me calling my guesses, estimates and suppositions....guesses, estimates, or suppositions?


Let me jump in Frank...this (above) is all we ever debated from where I stand...I do know why you particularly dislike calling assumptions beliefs but does that make a case ? Doubting an assumption (belief) (sorry for that) doesn't make it less of an assumption, because assumptions are the starting point and not doubting...my point about guesses having a bias instead of a random framing intends to show in what degree they carry assumptions with them...I agree that common sense would reason guessing as a less harmful wording...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 09:46 am
@Frank Apisa,
You are certain that logic IS, yet are unable to prove it. Therefore you have unproven certitudes, something which everybody else calls "belief" but you can call it a bloobiboolga for all I care.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 09:55 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Quote:
If you are saying that I acknowledge that I makes guesses, estimates, and suppositions...YES I DO. Is there anything wrong with me calling my guesses, estimates and suppositions....guesses, estimates, or suppositions?


Let me jump in Frank...this (above) is all we ever debated from where I stand...I do know why you particularly dislike calling assumptions beliefs but does that make a case ? Doubting an assumption (belief) (sorry for that) doesn't make it less of an assumption, because assumptions are the starting point and not doubting...my point about guesses having a bias instead of a random framing intends to show in what degree they carry assumptions with them...I agree that common sense would reason guessing as a less harmful wording...


Fil...I have no problem calling an assumption and assumption. I just think that if we use the words "belief" when making assumptions about everyday things...we end up giving the word a life and validity that it does not deserve in discussions about more serious things.

There is no real problem with someone saying, "I believe (rather than I guess) that the GIANTS are going to win the Super Bowl this year."

But there is a lot of potential danger in someone saying, "I believe (rather than I guess) that a GOD exists...and that the GOD expects us to blah, blah, blah.)

That is my point.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 09:58 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

You are certain that logic IS, yet are unable to prove it. Therefore you have unproven certitudes, something which everybody else calls "belief" but you can call it a bloobiboolga for all I care.


Olivier...because I cannot prove something does not make anything a belief.

I am willing to make the assumption that logic works. There may be people much more intelligent than I who can "prove" it works...but that is not important to me. I am willing to accept that it does.

So what is your point...and what have you "proven" with that???
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:00 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
...back to the topic, the pretence distinction between "blind guesses" and "informed guesses", while useful in simple contexts, is ultimately deceiving as guesses are by definition blind.


Some are blinder than others. There is no denying that the amount of information we have can significantly increase the percentage of correct guesses. Why do you suppose there are odds in games of chance? Why is there generally better odds and more money in betting on the underdog? Because generally there is less probability that the underdog will win.

It is not a "pretense distinction". It can be used to great value.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What do you see as "wrong" with that?


Nothing. I am just saying that not all people agree with you.
Some feel they have adequate evidence, and proceed to make guesses.
Sometimes they do have adequate evidence, and we call the guesses theories.
Other times they don't, and no one agrees what to call what they are doing.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:16 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
So what is your point...and what have you "proven" with that???


Exactly as I said: that you harbor unproven certitude, some of which can hardly be called guesses, e.g. in the case of logic, since you don't even have a fathomable alternative. You have no choice but believe logic works. You can still call that belief another way, though in that particular case, not a 'guess'. It's not like you're making any guessing about it: you've lived 70+ years without even giving the issue a thought, yet all this time you functioned under the assumption that logic works.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:23 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
...back to the topic, the pretence distinction between "blind guesses" and "informed guesses", while useful in simple contexts, is ultimately deceiving as guesses are by definition blind.


Some are blinder than others. There is no denying that the amount of information we have can significantly increase the percentage of correct guesses. Why do you suppose there are odds in games of chance? Why is there generally better odds and more money in betting on the underdog? Because generally there is less probability that the underdog will win.

It is not a "pretense distinction". It can be used to great value.


Generally speaking I agree with you (I started by stating that) but then my point was regarding how beliefs are born and evolved with us over the aeons and in what sense in high stakes risk taking, an informed guess can have a worst result then a blind guess on which you assume the worst scenario by default...

Its not like having informed guesses instead of blind guesses will in all scenarios improve our life's..when it comes to instinctive reactions better be a pessimist and assume false patterns are true then checking the chances of them being true to take action...when you just have to fail once to be a goner blind guessing the worst is less costly then being accurate statistically.

This is why I stand by the idea that no matter how better we get to make informed guesses, the need for base blind assumptions will keep in place...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:29 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
What do you see as "wrong" with that?


Nothing. I am just saying that not all people agree with you.
Some feel they have adequate evidence, and proceed to make guesses.
Sometimes they do have adequate evidence, and we call the guesses theories.
Other times they don't, and no one agrees what to call what they are doing.


I make guesses also. But I do not call my guesses...beliefs.

What do you see wrong with that?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:31 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
So what is your point...and what have you "proven" with that???


Exactly as I said: that you harbor unproven certitude, some of which can hardly be called guesses, e.g. in the case of logic, since you don't even have a fathomable alternative. You have no choice but believe logic works. You can still call that belief another way, though in that particular case, not a 'guess'. It's not like you're making any guessing about it: you've lived 70+ years without even giving the issue a thought, yet all this time you functioned under the assumption that logic works.




I make guesses...I make assumptions...I "harbor unproven certitude" on some things. I have NEVER SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.

You essentially are PROVING that my name is FRANK.

And what in the hell makes you think that I have never given the issue a thought?

Get off it.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I "harbor unproven certitude" on some things. I have NEVER SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.


The point is that you can't label your unproven certitudes 'guesses'. Everybody else calls them 'beliefs'. For the sake of clarity, you should too.

Quote:
And what in the hell makes you think that I have never given the issue a thought?


Just a guess... Smile
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:44 am
@Cyracuz,
I'll default to the definition i provided earlier (the first "hit" in a google search):

Quote:
Estimate or suppose (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.


Other than in cases of blind faith, people who believe something do so because they consider that there is sufficient information. Even in the case of what most of us would call blind faith, the people involved are not "guessing." As i said earlier, one does not wake up one day and say to themselves: "I guess there is a god! I guess i must be a Lutheran!" For however much we may wish to call them deluded, their conclusion is based on what they were taught as children, and the consensus of the community of which they are a part. They are not engaged in guessing. I don't consider it at all plausible to describe beliefs, whether arrived at through conditioning, or the consideration of evidence, to be guessing. You also ignore the context of Frank making these assertions about "guesses" as a response to having been hammered in debate, and thinking that that would be a clever polemical tool (which it is not). The example i provided about traffic lights, for however much people may sneer about it, is exactly to the point. We believe, without knowing to a certainty, that it is safe to proceed through an intersection when the lights are in our favor because our experience tells us that it's safe, and our experience also tells us that people overwhelmingly observe traffic regulation. That's not guessing.

The number one definition at Dictionary-dot-com: to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about (something) without having sufficient evidence to support the opinion fully: to guess a person's weight.

The two part number one definition at Answers-dot-com: To predict (a result or an event) without sufficient information.
To assume, presume, or assert (a fact) without sufficient information.

The number one definition at Merriam-Webster-dot-com: to form an opinion of from little or no evidence.

(In fairness, the number two definiton at M-W is: : believe, suppose <I guess you're right> . . . but note that this refers to supposition, and not any evidentiary process.)

Although, with sneering scorn, one might refer to some beliefs as guesses, guess is not an acceptable synonym for belief, and the primary definition of guess at all sources i found clearly refers to little or no evidence. There are many, many beliefs that people arrive at for which they have evidence, or for which they are convinced that there is evidence. They are not guessing in their own opinion, and often with good reason.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:44 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I "harbor unproven certitude" on some things. I have NEVER SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.


The point is that you can't label your unproven certitudes 'guesses'. Everybody else calls them 'beliefs'. For the sake of clarity, you should too.

Quote:
And what in the hell makes you think that I have never given the issue a thought?


Just a guess... Smile


Why should I do "what everyone else does?" If everyone wants to jump off a cliff...must I?

Anyway...if you contention is that "everyone makes guesses and estimates and suppositions...and everyone calls them beliefs"...

...I've got news for you:

I do not.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:45 am
Oh, sweet mother of Jesus...

...more snearing and scorning.

Is there no end to the hilarity?
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 10:58 am
@Frank Apisa,
It's not about jumping off a cliff. It's about engaging in CONVERSATION or COMMUNICATION via language. It helps when people use the same words to mean the same things.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 11:07 am
It is ironic and even funny to reason that taking uninformed chances of constantly being wrong regarding false pattern recognition against what is true 80% of the time has been the best way nature devised for you not taking chances of going extinct...its like I rather take the chance of almost always being wrong so that I get it right when right can kill me then taking the chance of almost always getting it right, when getting it wrong just once will kill me for sure...no wonder believing is a stubborn action against all odds...you ought to reason is damn better put your heart and soul on it...it explains a lot...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 11:24 am
Yes it is mostly true people will choose to believe what they think they have good reason to believe, and often do have good reason indeed...that's why we can act as rational beings and not as random dice...nonetheless in fundamental issues on which being wrong can be disastrous rationality without certainty can back fire against you...believing or not believing in a God should not be one of these issues if behind it there wasn't this imbibed instinct that "agenticity"is not something to play games of rational guessing...when it comes to agents that we cannot see we tend to assume they are all there conspiring against us...gods we must lull with sacrifices, the government conspiracy's, witches, gremlins and what not...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 11:48 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

It's not about jumping off a cliff. It's about engaging in CONVERSATION or COMMUNICATION via language. It helps when people use the same words to mean the same things.


What problem do you have, Olivier, if I say I am making a guess about something?

What problem do you have, Olivier, if I say I am making a presumption about something?

What problem do you have, Olivier, if I say I am making an estimate about something?

Why must I say "I believe those things" in order for us to communicate?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jun, 2013 12:01 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Using conventional words is a matter of choice but it does help in the communication. We can't all start to tamper with the language and expect to be understood. This thread is a good example: as long as it is mired in vacuous semantics, it will not reach the level of actual, rapid communication.
 

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