5
   

How is this definition of "belief"?

 
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 04:29 pm
@joefromchicago,
No point joe... no point... or maybe see my comments in my previous post to Oliver. Either way I won't be posting further on this subject.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:17 pm
@igm,
Quote:
I disagree. Where does the truly existent car reside? It's not in one of its parts or all of its parts or separate from its parts. The car is imputed by the mind but does not truly exist.

Can you see a difference between a house and a pile of bricks, or between a car and a pile of it parts? Would you pay the same price for both?

The difference is called STRUCTURE, or FORM. It is real, even if not strictly material. And everybody can see it. A structure is more than the sum of its parts. You can't drive an unstructured pile of parts. You can't inhabit an unstructured pile of bricks.

If your philosophy does not understand what a structure is, it's not because structures don't exist. It's because your philosophy is wrong.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 05:38 pm
@FBM,
I would say that the difference between "can't be known" and "not yet known" is greater than splitting hairs.

It seems to me that distinguishing between assertions that 'isn't known yet' and 'cannot be known', and calling the latter 'belief' gives us a much more precise idea of what a belief is than any definition that creates confusing notions like 'unjustified knowledge'.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 06:00 pm
@Cyracuz,
In a spirit of synthesis, I would propose "not yet known, and possibly unknowable".
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 06:02 pm
@Cyracuz,
I was understating the case, yes. This was main point that separated the Pyrrhonian skeptics from the dogmatic skeptics. The dogmatic skeptics claimed that knowledge was impossible, whereas the Pyrrhonians suspended judgement on the question. That is, they refused to make the leap from experience (of not knowing) to the metaphysical claim that knowledge is impossible (which is a knowledge claim in itself).
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 09:04 pm
@igm,
But IGM I hope you agree that, as Cryacuz asserts, "A belief becomes knowledge if and when it becomes justified and true if not then it remains a belief that is unjustified..." and that this also applies to "knowledge" to the extent that all knowledge is provisional, i.e., relative and subject to change. Indeed, this is even more the case than with "belief" which usually claims the virtue of absoluteness.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 01:54 am
@JLNobody,
I think you may have misread something, because I was not the one to claim that "A belief becomes knowledge if and when it becomes justified and true if not then it remains a belief that is unjustified...".

I am trying to express it in a different way, one that doesn't require us to have the base definition that knowledge is a form of belief.

I have proposed a difference between those assertions that are uncertain, and which we have no method of determining with any degree of certainty, and those assertions which are uncertain, but with certainty being a real possibility.
I have proposed to call the first "belief" and the other "hypothesis".
I have also proposed that these are very different conceptual entities.

To say that "a belief becomes knowledge" is functional. But it is also a poor way to express it, in my opinion.
Beliefs don't become knowledge. They get replaced by knowledge.

I have proposed that this way of understanding the difference between "belief" and "hypothesis-knowledge" provides a clearer understanding, and allows us to make more precise distinctions.

Bold propositions, perhaps, but it seems like a good idea to me.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 04:03 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

It just occurred to me, so I don't really know if it will pass closer scrutiny.

Belief - a conceptual frame in which an individual arranges his perceptions.


It can be said that there are two types of belief:

1. belief that is justified and true.

2. belief that is unjustified and untrue.

The first kind of belief that is justified and true is called knowledge by many philosophers and so this kind of belief should be called 'knowledge'.

The second kind of belief is all the other beliefs that are not knowledge.

It can now be seen that there is in fact one kind of belief that is not knowledge and this belief has the defining characteristics of being unjustified and untrue.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 04:12 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Cyracuz wrote:

It just occurred to me, so I don't really know if it will pass closer scrutiny.

Belief - a conceptual frame in which an individual arranges his perceptions.


It can be said that there are two types of belief:

1. belief that is justified and true.

2. belief that is unjustified and untrue.

The first kind of belief that is justified and true is called knowledge by many philosophers and so this kind of belief should be called 'knowledge'.

The second kind of belief is all the other beliefs that are not knowledge.

It can now be seen that there is in fact one kind of belief that is not knowledge and this belief has the defining characteristics of being unjustified and untrue.



If the subject matter is "Who makes the best cheesecake?"...there may be two kinds of "belief." There may even be more.

But if the subject matter is "What is the true nature of REALITY?"...all people can do is to make guesses. Some call those guesses "guesses." Others try to hide the fact that they are making guesses...and call their guesses "beliefs" hoping that the disguise will fool others.

Do you really not see that?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 07:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
If the subject matter is "Who makes the best cheesecake?"...there may be two kinds of "belief." There may even be more.


And not only for that question... We can never be certain that anything is true, and therefore by igm's definition, there's no such thing as knowledge.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 08:30 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

No point joe... no point... or maybe see my comments in my previous post to Oliver. Either way I won't be posting further on this subject.

Yeah, I figured you didn't know.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 08:36 am
@Frank Apisa,
According to the definitions I am proposing here, I would say that when it comes to assertions about "the true nature of reality", a belief is something less substantial than a guess.

I propose to define beliefs as assertions that can't be said to be true or false, because the distinction is either meaningless or impossible to determine for that assertion.
And any assertion that is made based on knowable information (even though there are guesses involved) is not a belief. It might be a guess, a hypothesis, a prediction.... The important thing is that the uncertainty of such assertions is a different kind of uncertainty than that of beliefs.

The difference, as I see it, is that beliefs have uncertainty surrounding their relevance, while the uncertainty surrounding theories and guesses, etc, is one of functionality.

In other words, a belief can't even proven to be relevant.
A theory is either proven functional, or it is discarded. This is how a theory earns it's relevance.
For beliefs there is no such method or process that can change them into something less uncertain.

It is my opinion that this approach gives us greater clarity and precision when contemplating knowledge, belief and how to see which is which. What do you think?
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 08:51 am
@igm,
Quote:
It can now be seen that there is in fact one kind of belief that is not knowledge and this belief has the defining characteristics of being unjustified and untrue.


What about beliefs that are neither true nor false? I do not know why you persist with this confusing idea of "unjustified, untrue, knowledge is belief etc...".

I made my arguments against that yesterday, and I think you should address those rather than just start over with the same stuff that got you nowhere in the first place.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 09:06 am
@Cyracuz,
Cyracuz wrote:

What about beliefs that are neither true nor false?

You can't prove/know if a belief is neither true nor false. Therefore...

... it must be option 2 (see below) unless you can prove it is not in which case it is option 1 (see below):

igm wrote:

It can be said that there are two types of belief:

1. belief that is justified and true.

2. belief that is unjustified and untrue.

The first kind of belief that is justified and true is called knowledge by many philosophers and so this kind of belief should be called 'knowledge'.

The second kind of belief is all the other beliefs that are not knowledge.

It can now be seen that there is in fact one kind of belief that is not knowledge and this belief has the defining characteristics of being unjustified and untrue.

igm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 09:11 am
@igm,
Post above has been amended.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 09:32 am
What utter drivel. What constitutes a "justified" belief? Stop playing idiotic word games.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 11:01 am
@Cyracuz,
Quote:
It is my opinion that this approach gives us greater clarity and precision when contemplating knowledge, belief and how to see which is which. What do you think?


I see a problem.

Perhaps you can explain in a way that resolves what I see as a problem.

Here, in what you wrote, is the problem:


Quote:
I propose to define beliefs as assertions that can't be said to be true or false, because the distinction is either meaningless or impossible to determine for that assertion.


How do you determine is an assertion cannot be said to be true or false...or that it is "impossible" to determine the assertion?

That may be possible for some things. One that comes to mind is the assertion: "There are no gods."

But, the other side of that coin is not that way. "There is a God" is, in my opinion, a guess...but (and) MAY BE determinable.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 01:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
But, the other side of that coin is not that way. "There is a God" is, in my opinion, a guess...but (and) MAY BE determinable.


You mean if He finally shows up?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 01:06 pm
@Setanta,
Ever the diplomat... :-)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 May, 2013 01:39 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
But, the other side of that coin is not that way. "There is a God" is, in my opinion, a guess...but (and) MAY BE determinable.


You mean if He finally shows up?


What I mean by that is: If there is a GOD...the GOD could easily decide to reveal ITSELF if IT chose to do so.

There is aboslutely no way to establish that there are no gods...every instance of a person asserting that there are no gods IS a guess.

I suspect every instance of a person asserting there is a GOD (or are gods) is a guess also...but that is not something that I can determine...and I freely acknowledge that IF THERE IS A GOD...the GOD could reveal ITSELF any way IT choose...and to whomever IT chooses.
 

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