How is this definition of "belief"?

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
Also, philosophy has traditionally defined knowledge as "justified true belief"

A meaningless generalization. How can you define knowledge as a kind of belief without excluding any knowledge that didn't take over after some belief?
The rules of baseball is knowledge. But how can we twist the words to say that they are "justified true belief"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

Belief, knowledge and epistemology

The terms belief and knowledge are used differently in philosophy.

Epistemology is the philosophical study of knowledge and belief. The primary problem in epistemology is to understand exactly what is needed in order for us to have true knowledge. In a notion derived from Plato's dialogue Theaetetus, philosophy has traditionally defined knowledge as "justified true belief". The relationship between belief and knowledge is that a belief is knowledge if the belief is true, and if the believer has a justification (reasonable and necessarily plausible assertions/evidence/guidance) for believing it is true.

A false belief is not considered to be knowledge, even if it is sincere. A sincere believer in the flat earth theory does not know that the Earth is flat.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

You guys are missing the point.

Determining true or false for any belief is not the same thing as defining the concept belief!
Forget true or false.
If an assertion can be proven either true or false, it is not belief.
A belief is an assertion to which the distinction true or false is meaningless because it can't be known.

Haven't I been saying this!? A belief becomes knowledge if and when it becomes justified and true if not then it remains a belief that is unjustified... how many times do I need to repeat myself?

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@igm,

The definition of belief is an unjustified state of mind that needs to be justified or seen for what it is, 'an unjustified state of mind'.

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@igm,

Quote:

Haven't I been saying this!?

Really??? It is you who are missing the point entirely, and repeating yourself doesn't make what you said any more relevant. It only indicates that you do not understand my objections.

Here's what you say:

Quote:

A belief becomes knowledge if and when it becomes justified and true if not then it remains a belief that is unjustified...

If this is true, then it must also be true that knowledge is a form of belief.
I have made my case of why knowledge can't be said to be a form of belief.
Belief can't become knowledge. At best, it can go away once knowledge makes it superfluous.

But the uncertain assertions that end up as knowledge are not the same kind of uncertain as those assertions we name beliefs.
'Uncertain' isn't the same as 'unknowable'.

Belief is assertion about something that is unknowable, and therefore neither true or false.

Theory is assertion that is demonstrably true or false.

Fact is assertion that is demonstrably true for anyone who cares to test it.

It's not that hard to grasp....

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@Olivier5,

I would accept the jury's verdict and then examine to see if I could find (via my lawyers) grounds to mount an appeal. If 'new facts' could be found then I may have grounds to appeal if those facts are seen as relevant enough by a judge to cast doubt on the original verdict.

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@Olivier5,

The term 'car' is an arbitrary linguistic designation... nothing more.

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@igm,

I do not accept that definition, since I can come up with one myself that provides greater clarity and precision in dealing with the issue.

Belief- assertion about something that is unknowable, and therefore neither true or false, and can't be subject to "justification".

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@igm,

Quote:

The term 'car' is an arbitrary linguistic designation... nothing more.

Sure but you don't drive the term 'car', do you? You drive a real car. And not a loose bag of spares either...

Conceptual clarity is important, if you want to benefit from your exchanges here.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Here's what you say:

Quote:
A belief becomes knowledge if and when it becomes justified and true if not then it remains a belief that is unjustified...

If this is true, then it must also be true that knowledge is a form of belief.

Why must it? Is a butterfly a caterpillar? What part of 'belief becomes knowledge' don't you understand i.e. it ceases to be a belief and becomes knowledge so 'no' knowledge is 'not' a form of belief.

Also, try to discontinue the negative remarks you're making about the poster known to you as 'igm' it is superfluous to our discussion.

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joefromchicago wrote:

Thomas wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
Saying "I don't believe in the existence of X" is the same as saying "I believe in the non-existence of X."

What if someone asked you if you believe there exists intelligent life in the Orion Nebula, and you felt you didn't have enough evidence to form a belief either way? Are you positive that "I do not believe in its existence, nor do I believe in its non-existence" would be an invalid answer?

Read again what igm wrote:

Quote:
I don't however believe there is a truly existent car... there appears to be but when examined it cannot be found

As I pointed out, that's not a statement of non-belief, that's a statement of belief phrased in a negative fashion. My mistake was neglecting to say that igm's statement of non-belief in the existent car was equivalent to stating a belief in the non-existence of that car in this instance. My apologies for any confusion that might have caused.

This is Joe's way of saying "I refuse to acknowledge that I was wrong unless I make it seem that my mistake was just a slight one by adding all sorts of qualifiers."

If you read Joe's original comment...you see that he was wrong. He was not talking about igm's comment...but about a generalization. That is why he used "x" instead of "a car."

His comment, "Saying "I don't believe in the existence of X" is the same as saying "I believe in the non-existence of X"...is just flat-out wrong.

I wonder why people like Joe have so much trouble acknowledging when they are wrong...without all that pretend qualifying stuff he added???

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
The term 'car' is an arbitrary linguistic designation... nothing more.

Sure but you don't drive the term 'car', do you? You drive a real car. And not a loose bag of spares either...

Conceptual clarity is important, if you want to benefit from your exchanges here.

I used the term 'truly existent car' do you know what I mean by that term? It is a philosophical point about the true nature of things. You do indeed drive a collection of parts and each of those parts is a collection of parts. If you examined a pile of atoms which were once designated 'car' you would not find a 'truly existent' car amongst them. If I started to take away the atoms from the phenomenon called 'car' when would it cease to be able to be called a car and why?

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@igm,

Quote:

Why must it?

Because that is what the words mean!! "Knowledge is justified and true belief". Are you trolling me??

Quote:

Is a butterfly a caterpillar?

No, which is why we don't define a butterfly as "a true and justified caterpillar". And just because butterflies were once caterpillars, doesn't mean knowledge follows the same development. That's a random, arbitrary assertion.

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@igm,

Quote:

Also, try to discontinue the negative remarks you're making about the poster known to you as 'igm' it is superfluous to our discussion.

Remarks about your incapacity to understand your own words, let alone mine, aren't superfluous to our discussion. And they aren't negative, only perceived to be by you since they are true.

I have given a good explanation of why I think knowledge is fundamentally different from belief, and cannot be defined as one.
All you do is repeat the same phrase again and again, and even though I have given arguments for why I disagree, you have not addressed those arguments.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

I used the term 'truly existent car' do you know what I mean by that term?

No. What does it mean for something to be "truly existent?"

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

You do indeed drive a collection of parts and each of those parts is a collection of parts.

There is a difference between a car and a pile , or even a "collection", of spare parts.

Think about it: what is the difference between a house and a pile of bricks?

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@Olivier5,

Two words: structure and function.

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@JLNobody,

Quote:

structure and function

Exact. The house is functional because structured. Similarly, the structure of the car, how the bit and pieces are fit together, is what gives the car its ability to run and be driven. So the person who "doesn't see a car", but just a series of pieces, is simply unable to see a structure, aka a form.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
structure and function

Exact. The house is functional because structured. Similarly, the structure of the car, how the bit and pieces are fit together, is what gives the car its ability to run and be driven. So the person who "doesn't see a car", but just a series of pieces, is simply unable to see a structure, aka a form.

I disagree. Where does the truly existent car reside? It's not in one of its parts or all of its parts or separate from its parts. The car is imputed by the mind but does not truly exist. I won't be commenting further so there's no need to reply.

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@Cyracuz,

I disagree. I've nothing more to add I'll leave it there.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

You guys are missing the point.

Determining true or false for any belief is not the same thing as defining the concept belief!
Forget true or false.
If an assertion can be proven either true or false, it is not belief.
A belief is an assertion to which the distinction true or false is meaningless because it can't be known.

This is a good point, also. I would only contest that last phrase, and only in a minor way. I think "it isn't (yet?) known" would be more comprehensive, but I'm just splitting hairs, maybe.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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