How is this definition of "belief"?

@Cyracuz,

You said,

Quote:

This is something we should be doing continuously, and in my mind, anything defined as a frame is constantly up for revision.

But that doesn't apply to all knowledge. Do you change your belief about day and night? How about your family and friends? Are they continuously revised as you redefine them? Are your family members your family or not?

If you believe they are family members, what more needs to be proved in your own mind?

If you got married, did you say "till death do us part?" Is that a belief of the future? It surely can't be instinct. Those decisions were made because you had a belief that your marriage would last. Whether it does is another story, and it has nothing to do with your belief when you said those words.

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@Frank Apisa,

What I wonder now is: do you understand yourself when you write something like: "there are times when my introspective probing comes up with rather disturbing revelations."?

It suggests that before those "revelations", some of your assumptions and thinking habits were "unrevealed" to you. At some point you discovered you operated on the basis of certain assumptions that you now consider unfounded. The same thing can still happen to you tomorrow.

Therefore, you don't know for a fact that you hold no beliefs. You're just guessing or hoping here.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Thanks, FBM.

For the record...there are times when my introspective probing comes up with rather disturbing revelations.

The last several years have shown me that many of the political machinations I deplored with (what I considered honest) intensity during the Bush administration...I am able to tolerate rather easily in the present one.

The impression I get is that the present vector is a gradual correction for the previous anomaly. At least that's what I hope it is. I'm too far away from it to say for sure.

Quote:

I'm not going into the specifics, but obviously there were hidden factors at work...and obviously I have discovered them and are sorting them out.

Not sure this is relevant to that, but self-discovery has been more beneficial to me than pounding others with dogmatic assertions. The more I understand of what goes on inside my own cranium, the less I judge others for what goes on inside theirs. (or their expressions of same)

Quote:

For Olivier to create a strawman that suggests I am blind to that sort of thing is absurd.

I'm guessing that it's just a bad habit with him/her. S/he doesn't seem very familiar with the terrain. Same fallacies over and over again. I tried to teach, but to no avail, so I just put him/her on ignore. Life is too short for that sort of adolescent engagement.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If it is necessary for your peace of mind to insist that I do...please do so.

Likewise, if it is necessary for your self esteem to naively believe that you have no beliefs, please do so. What do I care? You asked a question and I answered it to the best of my ability, that all. I am not insisting, just discussing stuff. If you want to discuss something else that's less personal, I'm fine with it too.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

What I wonder now is: do you understand yourself when you write something like: "there are times when my introspective probing comes up with rather disturbing revelations."?

It suggests that before those "revelations", some of your assumptions and thinking habits were "unrevealed" to you. At some point you discovered you operated on the basis of certain assumptions that you now consider unfounded. The same thing can still happen to you tomorrow.

Therefore, you don't know for a fact that you hold no beliefs. You're just guessing or hoping here.

Olivier...you obviously are not capable of understanding what I have explained to you several times. I think you need help. Perhaps there is a high school kid in the neighborhood you can ask for assistance.

I will try ONE MORE TIME.

I HAVE NO BELIEFS.

I make guesses...and sometimes they are wrong. That does not make them BELIEFS.

I make estimates...and sometimes events defy expectations and my estimates are wrong. That does not make them BELIEFS.

I sometimes assume things...and sometimes the assumptions lead me in a wrong direction...or prove to be assumptions I ought not to have made. None of that makes those assumptions to be BELIEFS.

Earlier you wrote: "Sounds like you are making of this a mere semantic issue. Just calling them something else doesn't make beliefs go away."

Who the hell do you think you are to create a semantic situation that requires I call my estimates, guesses, and assumptions to be "beliefs"...and then call me to task because I insist that I specifically refer to them as what they are...namely, guesses, estimates and assumptions.

I do not do believing. If you want to "believe" (whatever the hell that means to you)...do it. Stop insisting that I have to be doing it also.

I CAN say that I have no beliefs...and that it is knowledge...because I have clearly defined that I will call my guesses, guess; my estimates, estimate; my suppositions, suppositions; my presumptions, presumptions, my hypotheses, hypotheses...and so forth. I am not going to call them "beliefs"...nor am I going to consider them "beliefs"...because "beliefs" and "believe" are gr0ssly misused way too much...and the other words work just fine.

This was all written in clear to understand English. Try actually reading it...and comprehending it...and you ought really to consider not insisting that I do have beliefs just because you seem to think I do.

By the way...I also do not have any birch trees in my backyard.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If it is necessary for your peace of mind to insist that I do...please do so.

Likewise, if it is necessary for your self esteem to naively believe that you have no beliefs, please do so. What do I care? You asked a question and I answered it to the best of my ability, that all. I am not insisting, just discussing stuff. If you want to discuss something else that's less personal, I'm fine with it too.

Frankly (pun intended)...you are too full of yourself for meaningful discussion. I wish you would get over it...and perhaps we could have some converstation and exchange of notions that could prove interesting. But you really have to get over that other nonsense first.

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@Frank Apisa,

Fine. You have hypotheses and assumptions, some of which you apparently care deeply about, and some of which could yet be unconscious.

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@Frank Apisa,

That you are 100% sure you have NO BELIEFS is a belief. It's your conviction.

Quote:

be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

How about your family and friends? Are they continuously revised as you redefine them?

No. My family is my family, and that's empirically verifiable fact. My friends are my friends because I have chosen them to be my friends, and they have chosen me. But sometimes we have to adjust our expectations to those closest to us. Sometimes we even have to adjust our own expectations of ourselves.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That you are 100% sure you have NO BELIEFS is a belief. It's your conviction.

Quote:
be·lief
/biˈlēf/
Noun
An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.

Try to make a point, ci. And if you are going to quote me...quote me...not yourself or someone else.

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
How about your family and friends? Are they continuously revised as you redefine them?

No. My family is my family, and that's empirically verifiable fact. My friends are my friends because I have chosen them to be my friends, and they have chosen me. But sometimes we have to adjust our expectations to those closest to us. Sometimes we even have to adjust our own expectations of ourselves.

Exactly. I have no idea of what ci thinks this has to do with "beliefs."

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@Frank Apisa,

There is no way I can help you understand the English language as most perceive it. Most use the dictionary definitions for our understanding of words. Beyond that, it's up to the individual to decide how they wish to translate the written word.

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@Frank Apisa,

I understand, and I am not at all bothered by your choice to eliminate the word "belief" from your dealings.

Quote:

A guess should be treated as a guess...nothing more. That is showing it "respect"...and asking that it be given greater respect (often to the point of being allowed to influence laws for our nation) is asking too much.

I agree completely. There is a fine line between respecting a belief and making accommodations for ignorance and delusion.
What gets to me most, though, is when people refer to their beliefs when it comes to issues their beliefs don't even touch on. People who can't accept scientific facts because of their faith, for instance.
Creationism has to be one of the best examples. The people who say that dinosaurs can't have existed, because the earth is only 6000 years old or so. (Apparently they added up the generations in the bible to come up with a number.)
To me, that's similar to asking what time it is, then accepting 46 degrees celcius as a sensible answer.

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

Creationism has to be one of the best examples.

This seems to be an apt comparison. Narrow focus on an unfounded, unsupported, metaphysical bias for the sake of protecting what makes them feel good, excluding/ignoring empirical data...etc, etc.

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@Olivier5,

Quote:

Frank assumes that he is totally transparent to his own conscience. That's a pure belief, supported by no facts whatsoever. It is just an illusion.

I think that is a very bold claim. The way i understand Frank, he distinguishes between beliefs that correspond to nothing but an emotional experience, and as such cannot really be shared, and other kinds of willful projection where we make assertions about the unknown without having all the facts.
If that's the case, I can accept the statement "I know for a fact I hold no belief". He has made that choice. He wants to believe nothing, so he will believe nothing. That puts no limits on what he is able to consider.

For myself, I don't believe in anything. That is because I think that anything I can imagine is likely wrong anyway. This is not at all the same as saying that I hold no beliefs. I have many beliefs, known and unknown. It's just that none of them are sacred.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Exactly. I have no idea of what ci thinks this has to do with "beliefs."

It does for him. I can understand that. I refer to some of my more deeply rooted opinions as beliefs. That doesn't make them exempt from examination though.
In that regard I think there is cause for concern, if we are indeed growing to believe that beliefs are exempt from critical examination.
If I don't want people to examine and question my beliefs, I'll keep them to myself.

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@Cyracuz,

Thank you, Cyracuz. You seem to understand and are willing to accept what I have been trying to get across. I tried earlier to do it respectfully and with a bit of humor, but I have to acknowledge that I've allowed some of the attempts as psychology and intellectualism to fray some of my comments. I apologize to everyone for that.

It's like this thing with c.i. He seems to think that because he had gotten a dictionary definition of "belief" that reads, "An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction"...that I must subscribe to it and accept that, therefore, that I have "beliefs."

Well, I accept some statements as true...and I accept other things as true or real. But that does not make them "beliefs."

What they are to me is "things that I accept as true"...or "things that I accept as real." I have no obligation to transform them into this thing called "belief."

Apparently for some people they must say "I believe those things."

I DON'T...so I do not do "believing."

In any case, my main concern is when the word is used in discussions of REALITY (I think I've mentioned that before.)

If a person is saying, "I 'believe' there are no gods involved in REALITY"...that person is making a guess.

The logical and ethical thing to do is to call it a GUESS. But the person saying he/she "believes" it want to give it character and credence it truly does not have. (Actually "accepting as true" something like that in the absence of ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER...is a guess!)

The same thing goes for people who say, "I 'believe' there is a GOD involved in REALITY." Unless that person can also assert that the GOD has unambiguously revealed itself to him/her individually...then IT IS A GUESS.

The ethical way to deal with it is to call it a GUESS. But the person saying he/she "believes" it wants to give the guess character and credence it truly does not have. It is a ruse.

I do not participate in such ruses.

If it makes anyone feel better about themselves to limit my "I have no beliefs" to just unknowns about REALITY...please do so.

By the way, I accept as true that there are no birch trees in my backyard.

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

For myself, I don't believe in anything. That is because I think that anything I can imagine is likely wrong anyway. This is not at all the same as saying that I hold no beliefs. I have many beliefs, known and unknown. It's just that none of them are sacred.

That works for me too. I like the word "belief" because it connotes something I'm not just assuming for convenience' s sake, but something I care about, an idea dear to me. Of course, any "belief" can be false and I know that on a purely intellectual plane, but I would be deeply disappointed if my "beliefs" were proven false. The word connotes involvement on a personal level.

If others prefer to use the term "assumptions" for the same sort of "ideas they care about", I have no big problem with that. It's less emotional though, and thus probably less truthful. If you look at how the no-belief people defend quite aggressively their supposed lack of belief, it certainly sounds like this is important principle for them, not just a mere "guess" or "opinion".

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@Olivier5,

To go one step further, I wonder how they have planned for their education and what they believed to be the best way to "make a living." If there was no belief they could accomplish anything in life, how did they survive? After all, they are only "assumptions and guesses." We're not talking about the possibility of success or failure; only that they have pursued something they believed they could accomplish by making any choice of the the many options available to the individual (with the obvious constraints).

If they pursued those things from assumptions and guesses, I guess there's nothing I can do to explain the idea of "belief." NOTHING.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
For myself, I don't believe in anything. That is because I think that anything I can imagine is likely wrong anyway. This is not at all the same as saying that I hold no beliefs. I have many beliefs, known and unknown. It's just that none of them are sacred.

That works for me too. I like the word "belief" because it connotes something I'm not just assuming for convenience' s sake, but something I care about, an idea dear to me. Of course, any "belief" can be false and I know that on a purely intellectual plane, but I would be deeply disappointed if my "beliefs" were proven false. The word connotes involvement on a personal level.

If others prefer to use the term "assumptions" for the same sort of "ideas they care about", I have no big problem with that. It's less emotional though, and thus probably less truthful. If you look at how the no-belief people defend quite aggressively their supposed lack of belief, it certainly sounds like this is important principle for them, not just a mere "guess" or "opinion".

More abject nonsense from someone who apparently thinks himself to be an intellectual or purveyor of psychological snake oil.

How anyone can assert that calling a guess a guess...rather than a belief... is being less truthful than someone who calls it a belief...is beyond imagination.

And for someone to be as aggressive in telling someone else that they "do believe" despite the fact that such has been denied and explained repeatedly indicates a person who has difficulty with reality....not someone sticking to his guns.

In any case, I notice you have lacked the guts and integrity to deal with the REALITY part of this issue...which I "suspect" is because you see that it will throw a spotlight on the limits of your arguments.

Try working up a bit of courage and spine, Olivier. (You might start by posting your real name and where you live rather than a no-info alias as you have).

Let's talk about whether comments about the existence or non-existence of gods are more ethically charted as "beliefs"...or "blind guesses."

Think you can do it? Or will you find excuses not to do it?

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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