How is this definition of "belief"?

I perceive a real need for definitions that allow us to be honest with ourselves. I can understand the reluctance to use to word belief. I don't understand why anyone would care if someone else thought themselves without beliefs.
I think I can say with confidence that most likely we are all just different brands of wrong. We did invent all these ideas we're tossing about...

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@FBM,

I say good riddance! LOL

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@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I perceive a real need for definitions that allow us to be honest with ourselves. I can understand the reluctance to use to word belief. I don't understand why anyone would care if someone else thought themselves without beliefs.
I think I can say with confidence that most likely we are all just different brands of wrong. We did invent all these ideas we're tossing about...

I much prefer this approach to the dogmatic one. In order to be wrong, you first have to make a truth claim. It seems to me that when people go beyond describing first-hand experiences to make absolute statements about non-apparent issues (metaphysical claims), that just sets them up for disputes. That may explain a lot of the animosity that characterizes so many online discussions. I'm pretty tired of it, tbh. I'd much rather collaborate and share. Life's too short for petty one-upsmanship.

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@Cyracuz,

I already included a definition for "belief." It just doesn't provide the necessary wording for those without belief to understand it.

Maybe, you have a better definition for belief.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Quote:

I can understand the reluctance to use to word belief. I don't understand why anyone would care if someone else thought themselves without beliefs

I suppose we could use a more neutral word, like assumption. Not sure that will solve all problems but it could help.

Quote:

I don't understand why anyone would care if someone else thought themselves without beliefs.

The same reason religious people make atheists cringe, I guess: the naivete of their claims.

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@Cyracuz,

Quote:

@Olivier5: But we have good reasons to believe that the human mind actively resists introspection

Cyracuz: We have strong indication that one of the things our culture does very effectively is to actively distract the human mind from introspection. These days, the only thing introspection leads to is a diagnose. I feel curse words are in order.

I see no contradiction here. Whatever the merits of introspection, it is not a magic wand. The idea that we can consciously look at ourselves and make a casual inventory of our all the stuff we assume true without definitive evidence, just as if we'd survey a cellar, strikes me as assuming too much from the powers of introspection. Inconscient assumptions are a very real possibility; in fact it's almost a consequence of your original definition. We're not necessarily conscious of what we take for granted.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

I am not sure I would say that introspection is to "consciously look at ourselves and make a casual inventory of our all the stuff we assume true without definitive evidence". I would call that the reverse of introspection. Introspection is evaluating those assumptions, not charting them and blindly following them, as I see it. A lot of the time it's not about definite evidence. It's about what is practical and what you can live with. Many people have beliefs that make them miserable. They are aware of their beliefs, but not always that they are beliefs, and that they are the cause of their misery. In such cases, reflecting on what makes one believe as one does, or reflecting on how one defines oneself, may be very beneficial.

I think that the process of being critical towards our own selves is very taxing to our pride and ego, and can be very painful and sometimes even destructive, which is why so many seem to want avoid it at all cost. Ironically, the pain of finding and tearing down a belief that works against you is less than the pain living with that belief will bring.

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@cicerone imposter,

I'm still rolling with 'conceptual frame in which we arrange our perceptions'. I see these frames as something we create as references, and it is how we have gained knowledge. With knowledge we can examine our frames and adjust, shed or adopt them as we see fit. This is something we should be doing continuously, and in my mind, anything defined as a frame is constantly up for revision.

What any particular belief speaks to doesn't matter for this definition to work. A belief about god and a guess about what might be on the table for you that day at work are both frames in which we arrange our thoughts and experiences. The first is a deep, vague and poorly defined frame. The second is a small, specific, very practical and defined frame. It is much easier to see the latter for what it is.

According to this idea, delusion isn't having beliefs you cannot account for with reason. Delusion is having beliefs that directly contradicts facts. In the words of the proposed definitions, delusion would be to embrace a conceptual frame to which there is a corresponding conceptual identity (a fact) that makes the frame not fit.
When there are no corresponding conceptual identities we cannot identify delusion.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

I perceive a real need for definitions that allow us to be honest with ourselves. I can understand the reluctance to use to word belief. I don't understand why anyone would care if someone else thought themselves without beliefs.
I think I can say with confidence that most likely we are all just different brands of wrong. We did invent all these ideas we're tossing about...

As I've said before...the only time this is of real importance to me is during a philosophical discussion of the true nature of REALITY.

I simply do not do "believing" when it come to that area.

I make guesses, estimates, or suppositions...and I call them guesses, estimates, or suppositions.

There are some people who make guesses, estimates, or suppositions...and who call them "beliefs." Mostly, they do this in order to give their guesses a vitality that is missing when they are truthful about them being guesses.

Imagine: "I guess there is a GOD involved in the REALITY."

So, they say, "I believe there is a GOD"...and then expect people to show "respect" for the guess because they have identified it as a "belief."

A guess should be treated as a guess...nothing more. That is showing it "respect"...and asking that it be given greater respect (often to the point of being allowed to influence laws for our nation) is asking too much.

For people like c.i. to take that and try to make it absurd they way he is...is an absurdity in itself...good for a laugh and little more.

In any case, hard as it is for people who don't have the strength of character to call their guesses, guesses...to guess this way: I do not have beliefs.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

I've already answered this type of response... see above.

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@Cyracuz,

Very true. Yet my point was different. I think that Frank expect too much of introspection if he thinks that it can give him an exhaustive inventory of all his beliefs (with the intent of getting rid of them). He needs such an hypothesis if he is to say convincingly: "I know for a fact i hold no belief". If it's a fact, it must be based on experience, thus on introspection. But we are not totally transparent to ourselves, our conscience has clear limits beyond which introspection will fail.

Frank assumes that he is totally transparent to his own conscience. That's a pure belief, supported by no facts whatsoever. It is just an illusion.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Very true. Yet my point was different. I think that Frank expect too much of introspection if he thinks that it can give him an exhaustive inventory of all his beliefs (with the intent of getting rid of them). He needs such an hypothesis if he is to say convincingly: "I know for a fact i hold no belief". If it's a fact, it must be based on experience, thus on introspection. But we are not totally transparent to ourselves, our conscience has clear limits beyond which introspection will fail.

Frank assumes that he is totally transparent to his own conscience. That's a pure belief, supported by no facts whatsoever. It is just an illusion.

Oh, stop with Psych 101, will ya. You really are not that good at it...and you are the one making a big deal out of what I said...not I.

I am introspective...always have been. I take responsibility for myself...and have discovered that most of the unhappiness and supposed misfortunes of my life are self-caused. I take responsibility.

If you think that means I think there is nothing hidden in my psyche...you are playing with yourself. Of course I have sub-conscious and unconscious factors at play...just as everyone else does.

But I KNOW I have no beliefs...because I refuse to disguise my guesses, my estimates, my presumptions...by using the word beliefs rather than "guesses", "estimates" and "presumptions."

Grow up...and read what is going on; then play the professor with great knowledge.

Your assumption that I assume I am totally transparent to my our conscience...is a straw man built on quicksand. It is your illusion...certainly not mine.

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@igm,

igm wrote:

I've already answered this type of response... see above.

I doubt it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

But I KNOW I have no beliefs...because I refuse to disguise my guesses, my estimates, my presumptions...by using the word beliefs rather than "guesses", "estimates" and "presumptions."

I think this may be a key point. Based on my experience with things other people say compared to the thoughts that run through my head, some people seem to have more introspective mental behavior and therefore keep a more careful inventory of what's going on "up there." Coupled with a sense of dedication to honesty and a drive to understand, maybe that makes some people more sensitive to learning from experience, rather than dogmatically pounding away with whatever point of view they inherited or stumbled upon or makes them fit in better. Maybe.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

That's fine... when you definitely know I haven't get back to me... or not.

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@FBM,

FBM wrote:

Quote:
But I KNOW I have no beliefs...because I refuse to disguise my guesses, my estimates, my presumptions...by using the word beliefs rather than "guesses", "estimates" and "presumptions."

I think this may be a key point. Based on my experience with things other people say compared to the thoughts that run through my head, some people seem to have more introspective mental behavior and therefore keep a more careful inventory of what's going on "up there." Coupled with a sense of dedication to honesty and a drive to understand, maybe that makes some people more sensitive to learning from experience, rather than dogmatically pounding away with whatever point of view they inherited or stumbled upon or makes them fit in better. Maybe.

Thanks, FBM.

For the record...there are times when my introspective probing comes up with rather disturbing revelations.

The last several years have shown me that many of the political machinations I deplored with (what I considered honest) intensity during the Bush administration...I am able to tolerate rather easily in the present one.

I'm not going into the specifics, but obviously there were hidden factors at work...and obviously I have discovered them and are sorting them out.

For Olivier to create a strawman that suggests I am blind to that sort of thing is absurd.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

If you think that means I think there is nothing hidden in my psyche...you are playing with yourself. Of course I have sub-conscious and unconscious factors at play...just as everyone else does.

And therefore you can't explore yourself like you can explore your shoes. There could possibly be some strongly-held beliefs in there that you're still unaware of. QED.

Quote:

But I KNOW I have no beliefs...because I refuse to disguise my guesses, my estimates, my presumptions...by using the word beliefs rather than "guesses", "estimates" and "presumptions."

Sounds like you are making of this a mere semantic issue. Just calling them something else doesn't make beliefs go away.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I'm not going into the specifics, but obviously there were hidden factors at work...and obviously I have discovered them and are sorting them out.

For Olivier to create a strawman that suggests I am blind to that sort of thing is absurd.

By your own account, you were blind to them before you discovered them, weren't you?

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
If you think that means I think there is nothing hidden in my psyche...you are playing with yourself. Of course I have sub-conscious and unconscious factors at play...just as everyone else does.

And therefore you can't explore yourself like you can explore your shoes. There could possibly be some strongly-held beliefs in there that you're still unaware of. QED.

Quote:
But I KNOW I have no beliefs...because I refuse to disguise my guesses, my estimates, my presumptions...by using the word beliefs rather than "guesses", "estimates" and "presumptions."

Sounds like you are making of this a mere semantic issue. Just calling them something else doesn't make beliefs go away.

Olivier...you are miles away from understanding what I am saying...and you have concrete in the way of actually getting it.

I do not have any beliefs. If it is necessary for your peace of mind to insist that I do...please do so. I'll try to focus on the humorous side of your needs in this regard.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
I'm not going into the specifics, but obviously there were hidden factors at work...and obviously I have discovered them and are sorting them out.

For Olivier to create a strawman that suggests I am blind to that sort of thing is absurd.

By your own account, you were blind to them before you discovered them, weren't you?

You know how to read...and I stated my position clearly. If you have trouble understanding without my repeating...get someone to help you.

1 Reply

How is this definition of "belief"?

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