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What do you believe is true, but cannot prove?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 12:01 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Perhaps there is a way of settling the matter and making Frank acknowledge he does believing, it very much depends on its intellectual honesty...


Perhaps. Torture comes immediately to my mind...but anything short of that is not going to work.

Quote:
Frank I think you admit there is a difference between a blank random blind guess, and a confident estimative or expectation based on previous experiences, for which you don't have nonetheless ultimate proof right ?


Yup. A blank random blind guess is a blank random blind guess...and a confident estimate(ive) or expectation based on previous experiences...are confident estimates and expectations based on previous experiences.

So far, I follow you.

Quote:
Wouldn't you say after a money transfer occur "I believed the money was on my account", as means of justifying your lack of knowledge on eventually unexpected events that kept the money out of your balance ?


Perhaps if I were paid a million dollars I might...and then, after spending it, I would recant it and acknowledge that I did it only to get the money.

I occasionally check my balance to see if the balance is in agreement with my checkbook (100% so far)...but there is absolutely NO NEED whatever for by saying I "believe" anything in that circumstance.

Quote:
And how is that significantly and meaningfully different from an informed guess based on inductive or deductive rational procedures and previous experience even if without full certainty ?


Read above. In order to ask this question, you assumed something you shouldn't have.


Quote:
Where is exactly the mechanical operational distinction from"expect" "estimate" or "believe" ???


I've gone through this many, many times already, Fil. I hope this is the last.

Things I expect...I say "I expect." Things I estimate...I say "I estimate." Things I blindly guess (I do that occasionally)...I say, "I blindly guess."

There is no need for me to use the word "believe"...which I see on occasion as disguising those things. For instance, when someone says to me, "I believe the universe was created by a GOD who loves us"...I personally think the person is (or should be) saying, "I am blindly guessing that the universe was created by a GOD...and I am blindly guessing that the GOD loves us."

Fil...I cannot make that any clearer.

What do you see wrong with that...that causes you to try to make it false or hypocritical or whatever you are trying to do by continuing to parse this thing????
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 12:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
By the way...if you think this did not work out the way you expected is because I am being "intellectually dishonest"...you are dead wrong.

You've left that impression.

I am hoping you will remove that impression.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 12:27 pm
@rosborne979,
Since I was a kid I've precieved, or at least felt that I've precieved, the elasticity of time seeing as how an hour at school sometimes felt much, much longer.

Then, when I became familiar with the Theory of Relativity, I began to think that there actually may be "warps" in time especially since, if space can be warped, then time should be able to as well.

About my feeling of the perception of warps in time, it may just be that I was bored out of my skull, but I still hold to the actualness of the perception.

I also felt that I could precieve the sephericalness of the earth as I sat at the back of the classroom looking forward. It was as if I was looking through a fisheye lens.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 12:52 pm
@InfraBlue,
Personal perceptions are everything regardless of actual events in time and space.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:16 pm
@Frank Apisa,
No Frank your are totally entitled to your preference in word choosing that was not the point..I asked you for a FUNDAMENTAL operational distinction between "expect" and "believe" and you provided none other the social cultural context and bias...

Quote:
I occasionally check my balance to see if the balance is in agreement with my checkbook (100% so far)...but there is absolutely NO NEED whatever for by saying I "believe" anything in that circumstance.


Your belief is passive...if anything unexpected happens, or go wrong in a money transfer, quite naturally you could use an " I believed the money was on my account"... why don't you just assume so ?

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:35 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:

Your belief is passive...if anything unexpected happens, or go wrong in a money transfer, quite naturally you could use an " I believed the money was on my account"... why don't you just assume so ?


My "belief" is non-existent...and I still wonder why you are putting so much time and energy into trying to "prove me wrong" for no other reason than to do that (which you cannot do.)

I do not do believing. Check my posts out. Quote me every time you see me say, "I believe...." Check every post here...or at Abuzz...or at any of the other forums where I post.

You will not find a one.

If I am guessing something...I simply acknowledge I am guessing it.

If I am estimating something...I simply acknowledge that I am estimating it.

If I am hoping for something...I simply acknowledge that I am hoping for it.

What is it with you that requires that I make those things be "beliefs"...especially since I have carefully explained why I think using "belief" is attempting a disguise.

Maybe that is why I use my real name...rather than some corny screen name. Because I do not like disguises.

But because many others here on the Internet used screen names that are NOT their real name...does that mean I have to...or that even though I am using my real name, I have an obligation to pretend that I am using a phony one????

Just askin'!
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Haven't I addressed this yet ??? I am asking for a mechanical understandable distinction not for your preferences !
Quote:
No Frank your are totally entitled to your preference in word choosing that was not the point..
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 02:14 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5307490)
Haven't I addressed this yet ??? I am asking for a mechanical understandable distinction not for your preferences !

Quote:
No Frank your are totally entitled to your preference in word choosing that was not the point..


I see. And I am asking you never to address a question of this sort to me again.

I wonder if either of us will get what we are asking for.
0 Replies
 
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:08 pm
I believe that the universe existed before I was born, but I myself, cannot 100% prove such a belief, as I didn't exist to experience what existed before I came into existence. I can only truly "believe" what I knowingly experience myself, as any other information that is relayed to me is second hand and un-experienced which COULD be true or false. Yet when I knowingly experience anything, I KNOW what is true or false relative to myself and what I'VE experienced. Second handed evidence doesn't always tell the truth, no matter how ingrained in me it may be.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:14 pm
@mikeymojo,
As far we look at it as sets within sets of information what would be the difference ? True time is irrelevant to time scaling of information, as time is just another axis of space. (information space)
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Before you can "guess, estimate it, or hope it," you must have an underlying belief. Otherwise, your life would be hopeless and without any direction.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
drop it...I did...its a personal thing...there's nothing there really... Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5307490)
Before you can "guess, estimate it, or hope it," you must have an underlying belief. Otherwise, your life would be hopeless and without any direction.


That does seem to be your opinion.

I think you are wrong.

In any case, my life is anything but hopeless and it certainly has as much "direction" as I want.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 12:47 pm
@Frank Apisa,
And you have no beliefs? And they are mostly guesses? LOL
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5309530)
And you have no beliefs?


Finally!!! You got it. That is correct...I have NO beliefs.

I thought you would never get it.

Quote:
And they are mostly guesses?


Not sure what you mean here. My guesses definitely are ALL guesses...not mostly.

Quote:
LOL


I am happy it finally got through also, ci.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:13 pm
@mikeymojo,
Quote:
I believe that the universe existed before I was born, but I myself, cannot 100% prove such a belief, as I didn't exist to experience what existed before I came into existence.


Pardon me, friend, but your above statement is one of the most enigmatic utterances I've happened upon. You were born through the act of sex. Your father and mother had to get together to create you there fore it stands to reason, without doubt there was a Universe before you were born. There are some things we question.....questioning is a good thing.....but you declaration is simply ridiculous.
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:16 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
The difference is relative to myself, for all I know the universe started when I came into existence. I don't believe such a thing, but I also can't prove it's wrong. I can only reference what I do know as I exist. To me, before I was born, nothing existed as I wasn't around to experience anything. It doesn't mean nothing really existed, it just means nothing existed to me. Just showing how subjective the question is, which automatically means there is no correct answers relative to the whole. If the question was What do PEOPLE believe is true, but cannot prove, then arguments about the answers will be relevant and justified.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:24 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:


Quote:
Re: mikeymojo (Post 5309511)
Quote:
I believe that the universe existed before I was born, but I myself, cannot 100% prove such a belief, as I didn't exist to experience what existed before I came into existence.



Pardon me, friend, but your above statement is one of the most enigmatic utterances I've happened upon. You were born through the act of sex. Your father and mother had to get together to create you there fore it stands to reason, without out doubt there was a Universe before you were born. There are some things we question.....questioning is a good thing.....but you declaration is simply ridiculous.


Hummm.

So you know without any doubt that you were NOT “created” just moments ago complete with all your supposed memories???

How do you know that?

Why are you so sure.

And why, considering what you wrote here, are you suggesting that Mikey’s comments are “simply ridiculous?”
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:28 pm
@mikeymojo,
Quote:

The difference is relative to myself, for all I know the universe started when I came into existence.


Your personal experience, I can understand, but that is denying the existence of reality and what made it possible for you to exist. How did you come into being?! Eh?! How the f*uk do you think you came about?!?
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Apr, 2013 01:40 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
You are basing your questions on the assumption that YOU know what REALITY truly is. The greatest question of Mankind is How did reality and life come about. Know one will ever truly know because know one was around to experience how reality came about. Truly, I have no idea how I came about because I wasn't around to know the truth of how I came about. I "believe" I came about from my parents having sex (which I don't ever want to think about again) but that's only because I've been told that by second hand accounts. Second hand accounts aren't always true, it's why lying is so so effective against people. I'm just saying the only way I know what is true to me is if I actually experience it first hand. Life, and my beliefs will always be relative to only me and what I've experienced myself.
 

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