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What do you believe is true, but cannot prove?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 03:00 am
@margo,
Kiss, kiss, Sweetiepie . . .
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 03:02 am
@Razzleg,
Quote:
No offense, Frank, but i have to assume that your argument is the product of semantic intransigence or finagling. "Belief" is a pretty flexible term.


No offense taken, Razz.

In any case, if you consider "belief" to be a flexible term and still want to use it...do so. I prefer not to. I prefer to use words like "prefer" "consider" "estimate" or "blindly guess". They are a bit more precise...and I use them instead.

I do not do "believing."

And if we had more people saying:

I blindly guess there is a GOD...rather than I believe a GOD exists...I think (not believe) the world would be a better place.

I blindly guess there are no gods...rather than I believe there are no gods...I think (not believe) the world would be a better place.

I blindly guess there is no Heaven, Hell, soul, duality...rather than I believe there is no Heaven, Hell, soul, duality...I think (not believe) the world would be a better place.

If you want to "believe" I am correct or incorrect about those things...fine. I prefer to say that "I agree" or "it is my opinion" or "my take on this is."

I do not do believing.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 12:50 pm
@Frank Apisa,
What then in your perspective would be the difference between an informed guess which you actually ponder and believing ? Or do you think believers don't have doubts ?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 01:09 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
The problem, Fil, is with the word itself.

Look...if someone wants to suggest that because I go through a green light, that means I "believe" the crossing cars will stop at their red light...I couldn't care less.

The "believing" I am talking about comes into play in comments like:

I "believe" there is a GOD who loves us.

I "believe" there are no gods...that ALL gods worshiped or conceived of...are merely creations of superstitious people.

I "believe" in non-duality...that we one.

I "believe" that when we die, we blah, blah, blah.

That kind of "believing", Fil...NO MATTER HOW PONDERED...is almost certainly guesswork.

I do not do that kind of "believing."

Now...I do some guesswork. The sentence above that begins "That kind of 'believing...'" involves guesswork.

If I had been asked about that...I would freely (as I am doing) acknowledge that there is guesswork involved...and I would call the "guesswork", guesswork.

Theists talk about "beliefs" as though they are talking about some kind of morally positive intellectual exercise. But all they are doing is to disguise the fact that they are guessing…and for a good reason. “I guess that a GOD exists” simply does not have the impact of “I believe that a GOD exists.”

It seems to me that they are identical.

If you could give me some indication of what an “informed guess” about the existence of GOD…or non-existence of any gods…I will respond to the remainder of your question.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 01:35 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well that clears a lot of dust between our little tête-à-tête Frank...you dislike the common usage of belief as blind faith (a myth per se) as mixed with informed guesses...I am less exigent on the usage...

As for your second remark regarding God my view can be abstracted in one single word...God is Unity !
(The set of all sets, some call it reality, I am indifferent to the coinage)
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 05:04 pm
I believe it's time to start worrying about the presidential aspirations of Margaret Thatcher's granddaughter.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 05:49 pm
@izzythepush,
PM?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 05:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/reliable-source/wp/2013/04/17/amanda-thatcher-margaret-thatchers-granddaughter-is-a-university-of-richmond-student/

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Apr, 2013 06:37 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I've visited St Paul's in London often in my many visits to the UK some years ago. The basement has a rough replica of the building designed by Christopher Wren.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:09 am
@cicerone imposter,
No, she's an American and an evangelical Christian.
0 Replies
 
Razzleg
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:27 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

In any case, if you consider "belief" to be a flexible term and still want to use it...do so. I prefer not to. I prefer to use words like "prefer" "consider" "estimate" or "blindly guess". They are a bit more precise...and I use them instead.

I do not do "believing."


i respect your decision to eschew terms you find suspect, but that doesn't make me less curious about it. i'm sure that you've addressed this in other threads, but how do you define the term "belief"? It seems to me that many methods of induction and deduction fall under this categorical heading.

The terms "prefer", "consider", "estimate" and "blindly guess" may seem more precise to you, but they seem equally ambiguous to me. "Believe" and "prefer" do seem different. One presents itself as involuntary, the other is a representation of individuation. i am perfectly willing to admit that "preference" often publicly disguises itself as "belief", and their difference is striking when it is revealed; nonetheless, the nature of each human aspect is similar at least in the ambiguity of its significance.

Do you consider the term "know" and "knowing" with the same animosity as you do "believing"? Its usage also seems to imply an involuntary, abstract meaning. i'm not trying to be a prick, just trying to get a hold on your personal guidelines, for curiosity's sake.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 01:36 am
@Razzleg,
I have the impression Frank equates "believing" with being "mesmerized"...I mean that got to be it...I can't see any substantial difference between "believing" and "prefer", "consider", or "estimate"...
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 04:37 am
@Razzleg,
Quote:

i respect your decision to eschew terms you find suspect, but that doesn't make me less curious about it. i'm sure that you've addressed this in other threads, but how do you define the term "belief"? It seems to me that many methods of induction and deduction fall under this categorical heading.


Most of the time "believe" and "belief" are used innocuously...and I have no problem with their use at all.

"I can't believe he hit the ball that far" is an example of an innocuous use. If you have just watched someone hit a ball very far...there is no need for "belief", because it is a fact.

But when in a discussion of religion or philosophy, the two words are often used to disguise a
Quote:
guess...often a blind guess based on no reasonable evidence at all.


"I believe a GOD created the universe" is almost certainly a blind guess based on no reasonable evidence at all..

"God believe loves us" is almost certainly a a blind guess based on no reasonable evidence at all.

"I believe there is no such thing as a god" is a a blind guess based on no reasonable evidence at all.

"I believe there is no self or soul" is almost certainly a blind guess based on no reasonable evidence at all.

(I could go on for a very long time, but you get the idea.)

The problem for the speaker is that he or she knows what the statements would look like if the more appropriate wording were used. Imagine:

I blindly guess based on no evidence at all that the universe was created by a GOD.

I blindly guess based on no evidence at all that there is a GOD...and that the GOD loves us.

I blindly guess based on no evidence at all that there are no gods.

I blindly guess based on no evidence at all that there is no self or soul.

You see the problem with that formulation.

Imagine someone telling you: You have to respect other people's blind guesses even though they are based on no evidence at all, or you will be showing disrespect for them!

Come back at me on this if it is still not clear, Razz.
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 09:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Actually, my life is very, very enjoyable. I wake up each morning ready to get goin'. Now that Spring has sprung, life for me starts with a round of golf (except for the two days when I work at the golf course so I can golf without paying.)


I believe it is cheating if you cut the holes out.
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 10:15 am
I believe that whenever there is a disconnect between what a person says and does, it is best to believe what he/she does.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 10:19 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
It doesn't matter, because everything for Frank is a guess, even when he plays golf. He's not sure he's out there swinging his clubs to hit the ball! LOL

His physical being doesn't exist, because he's not sure it's real.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 10:42 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Re: Fil Albuquerque (Post 5307018)
It doesn't matter, because everything for Frank is a guess, even when he plays golf. He's not sure he's out there swinging his clubs to hit the ball! LOL

His physical being doesn't exist, because he's not sure it's real.


No...everything is not a guess...and I have never suggested such a thing.

What...are you running out of excuses...so you have to resort to this nonsense?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 10:59 am
@Frank Apisa,
You wrote,
Quote:
Fil...I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS. I have guesses and I have expectations and I make estimates...

...BUT I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS.

You are not required to accept that...and continue to suppose you know more about me than I know about me if you choose. That will not change things.


That means you don't know about any activities you participate in. It involves belief in something before you can anticipate doing something.

You also stated,
Quote:
Frankly, in my opinion, the true nature of REALITY is an unknown.


If you don't know the true nature of reality, how can you even plan any activity - or discuss what your beliefs are about anything?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 11:11 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
That means you don't know about any activities you participate in. It involves belief in something before you can anticipate doing something.


That is even more absurd than your usual absurdities, ci.

Quote:
If you don't know the true nature of reality, how can you even plan any activity - or discuss what your beliefs are about anything?


Very easily. I do it every day. So do you.

And my guess is YOU do not know the true nature of REALITY either.

0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Apr, 2013 11:48 am
Perhaps there is a way of settling the matter and making Frank acknowledge he does believing, it very much depends on its intellectual honesty... Mr. Green

Frank I think you admit there is a difference between a blank random blind guess, and a confident estimative or expectation based on previous experiences, for which you don't have nonetheless ultimate proof right ?

Wouldn't you say after a money transfer occur "I believed the money was on my account", as means of justifying your lack of knowledge on eventually unexpected events that kept the money out of your balance ?
And how is that significantly and meaningfully different from an informed guess based on inductive or deductive rational procedures and previous experience even if without full certainty ?
Where is exactly the mechanical operational distinction from"expect" "estimate" or "believe" ???

We know that blind guessing requires awareness of being guessing while on the contrary beliefs, require genuine expectations...
 

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