Lesbian friend crossing the 'line'

Eh, wait. I mean ... OK, all I mean is, I guess, that I read your post and, to be honest, I just went, "err?"

You told us here at the board quite articulately what behavior and remarks of her bothered you and why.

But going on what you quoted from your conversation (and of course thats quite little, so its hard to tell for us exactly how it went), you phrased your point to her more like you were talking about some general social topic. "That I wish society wasn't", et cetera.

She obviously didn't get it - didn't get what you were trying to say. And to be very honest, I wouldn't, really, either! I mean, just going on what you post here.

If someone told me that she "wasn't really into talking about anything sexual" and that she "wished society wasn't so focused on the sex industry and instead more focused on solving problems, and ending suffering" - I would not have a clue that she was trying to tell me sopmething about what I did to her. Do you get my drift?

Only reason I bring it up is that, from what you're posting, I gather that you're someone who will be quite indirect about things, maybe all too subtle, whereas she seems like the more direct, in-your-face kind of person. Who doesn't always listen so well to what you think you're putting across. Tell me if I'm totally wrong here.

And I'm a little concerned that you're dumping her over something you haven't really given her a chance at changing, because you havent really told her about it yet in a way that she would be able to hear.

Of course, I'm sure we're missing a lot of the story, just reading about it on this thread. For example, its hard to fathom, for me, how her answer to your remarks (going off on some tangent about blankets for the poor) amounts to giving you "garbage" back for your feelings. To me, it just sounds like she went off on some random tangent about society - which isnt all that strange, if she just totally didn't get that you were talking about something you feel about her.

Basically, this kind of conversation, the last-chance-to-change-things-or-I'm-giving-up conversation, is no time to be passive aggressive about things. If you feel X or Y because she says B or C, then that's what you'll need to tell her. Straight up. Not some roundabout paraphrasing or metaphoring, just: "Listen, you often say things like ... and I really feel ... about that, and I want you to stop it or ...". If you don't do that, imho, you haven't really given her a fair chance. Thats just my two c.

BlueTime,

I saw this headline:

How to Divorce Your Friends and thought of you. Check out the linked article - it's short.

Oh, and re: Noddy.

I think she referred to "bullying" in the context of your "nun" story, not in the context of your last conversation with her.

And in the nun story, too, to be honest, your friend's lightheartedness about it suggests that she really doesnt suspect how strongly you feel about this - or even that there is much of a problem at all.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with standing up for yourself and refusing to be a pushover - more power to you.

But if that's what you want, then the first step is to clearly express what is bothering you - to her, that is.

To subtly kinda try to make your point and then, if she doesnt get it, quickly walk away in frustration is not standing up for yourself. You can either say, OK, I really want to talk this out with her, and then do it, clearly and honestly - or, of course, you can decide for yourself that whichever way she'd respond, you're still simply done with her anyway, so it's not worth the hassle.

I hope I havent been too harsh. I feel kinda strongly about friendships that end because people never really got to say what bothered them ... if I'm out of line tell me.

nimh... I knew what noddy meant about the bullying (about the nun story). I wish that had been the first time she had done that.

Our conversation started very specifically. I was very clear to her that I didn't understand why she felt a need to push my buttons. She said it was the tone of my voice that left a perfect opportunity to "f*ck with me". Apparently, she hears that tone in most things that I say. Then she asked if I was freaked out by the subject (sexuality/sex/lesbianism)... that's when I got general. I'm usually forced to get general when the other person starts twisting my words around like she started to. I assure you, there was no tone to my voice, unless you're just reading sexual inuendos into everything.

Even though I was general about the subject, I was open with her about how I felt... and she made another joke about it. I don't think she'd like it if I made jokes about her being a lesbian.

I guess I should have offered more of the conversation, sorry And no, you aren't too harsh.

Thanks for the link, Jer, that helps me a lot.

My diagnose of "bully"--which several other posters suggested early on--is based not on a single incident, but on your "friend's" insisting on demonstrating her playful little ways after you've made it clear to her that such behavior/conversation/mindset bothers you.

Essentially she's announcing, "My feelings are more important in our relationship than your feelings." This is bullying behavior.

Her sensitive ear "hears" that someone she considers a friend is asking for put-downs and rough, unpalatable teasing?

She's got it both ways--not only is she a superior being, you're "asking for bullying".

Yeh, that don't sound good.

I guess you'll just have to draw the line ... sad, tho. But you're right, if she refuses to listen ...



I'm glad, I was a bit worried ... <smiles>

I too have told someone off after a long time of sort of dominant seeming stuff... really, your life will be easier for the next fifty years, if you just learn to express yourself, the key thing, aside from representing yourself accurately, being to always do it with courtesy and also listen back. This is not so easy an idea to apply at any given moment but works in the long run Be true to yourself, speak to same, and also listen.

Ok, in case anyone's interested... here's the entire conversation... I know I could have handled it better, but its over now. I'll just keep this all in mind the next time I'm tempted to be the door mat in a relationship.

Bluetime says:
I wante to ask you... why were you wanting to push my buttons about liking nuns? just curious
Friend says:
it was just the inflection in your voice when you said that you liked nuns... I knew what you meant but it was the way you said it that left perfect opportunity to **** with you.
Bluetime says:
ah
Friend says:
you're not sensitive opn that subject... are you?
Friend says:
opn = on
Bluetime says:
sensitive to what subject? I don't have gay tendencies at all, if that's what you mean.
Friend says:
no... kind of like get freaked out by the subject
Friend says:
i know you're not gay
Bluetime says:
Well, sometimes. I mean, I don't want to hear about anyone's sex life, gay or straight. Just not my favorite subject.
Friend says:
im confused, we weren't really talking about a sex life... we were talking about a little joke that might have gotten you upset.
Bluetime says:
I know, but that's kind of in the same category... well, in a way.
Bluetime says:
sorry
Friend says:
you're crazy... ok no more implicating anything...joke or not...from me- as long as you don't take anything i say too seriously...deal?
Bluetime says:
deal... I was only asking
Friend says:
hey i gotta run can i call you later
Bluetime says:
I just wish our society focused less on the sex industry, and just doing whatever feels good, and paid more attention to all the suffering... and fixing the major problems. That's just me. Sure anytime.
Friend says:
i know...but what is our conversation going to do about suffering...talk is cheap... you want to do something about suffering then start making blankets for the homeless or join the peace corp. I have friends of mine that have done both...
Bluetime says:
maybe I will then
Friend says:
cool...let me know if i can help
Bluetime says:
sure
Friendsays:
i'll talk to you later
Bluetime says:
ok bye
Friend says:
Byee



>From: Bluetime
>Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 6:51 AM
>To: Friend
>Subject: Hey there
>
>I'm sorry I didn't call you back, but my parents were over and they stayed
>for quite a while.
>
>I don't like having to discuss things over the net, but I don't have much
>time to talk in the evenings, and we seem to get interrupted a lot anyway.
>I foresee a lot of hurt feelings and misunderstandings in the future of our
>friendship. I know that I may have hurt your feelings on the messenger, and
>if I did, I'm sorry. Just the same, though, you may not realize that you
>hurt mine.
>
>I said that I wish society focused more on working out important issues and
>less on the sex industry... I care a lot about people, for some reason,
>haha, and I try hard to learn about what's going on in the world and do what
>I can to help the causes that I feel are important. I know sewing blankets
>for the homeless or joining the Peace Corp would be great, and I'm glad you
>know people who do that... but I think what I'm doing is pretty important,
>too. I've been working with the biochemists at my school for the last few
>years develop drugs to treat cancer. If I can't work with them after I
>graduate, I'll be working in a lab somewhere that focuses on
>that--hopefully. That is why I majored in chemistry... because I want to
>work toward a more positive future. So its not like I'm just sitting here
>doing nothing. There might already be a cure for cancer if there were more
>people in science and medicine, but people don't seem interested... until
>someone they knows is diagnosed with it. So that is what I meant by the
>statement. I didn't want you to just think I was throwing out comments.
>
>As far as my sensitivity to the subject we talked about... I have felt
>lately like you want to make jokes about me being straight. Maybe you
>didn't mean any of it that way, but I feel that I've shown respect for your
>life and should get the same respect back. I can't imagine you enjoying
>jokes about being a lesbian. Even if you didn't mean anything by these
>kinds of comments, I'm surprised you aren't aware of how they can come
>across. I've never been a fan of sex jokes, though. Not sure why, I guess
>I'm just not thinking about sex that often. There are so many other things
>to talk about than sex or sexuality. I mean, that issue is settled and I'd
>rather move on and talk about something else.
>
>Ok, sorry if I rambled here. I think it may be best if we not talk for a
>while. Maybe later we can start over or something. I hope this is ok with
>you.
>

>From Friend
>To bluetime
>Subject: Re: Hey there
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 01:25:34 -0600
>
>Hold up... start over. There is nothing to have hurt feelings about on your part or on mine...I don't think you realize how much of a clown I am. None of this should have been taken even remotely seriously. And if you would rather talk about society's ills...that's fine. But I have to find a way to laugh at it or I will become very depressed. I know there is a lot in society that is wrong. And I commend your cancer research. That is something that will benefit millions of people someday.
>
>And as far as the lesbian jokes...that would never offend me. For one...I know who I am and I am very confident in the fact that I am a lesbian. And I am very proud to be a lesbian. Just as you know you are straight and nothing anybody (including me) says or does will change that. You are obviously proud to be straight and that's a good thing. It was a joke... not a moral dilemma.
>
>But I will tell you what I am offended by... I finally found a friend in this godforsaken place. A friend that accepted me for who I am. Who valued my opinions and listened to me when I talked. Someone who didn't want or expect anything from me except good conversation and a few laughs. And all that is down the toilet over one little comment that was so unimportant that I didn't even remember it until you asked me about it the other day. Maybe I was wrong. Or maybe you're trying to push me away for some other reason... either way, I don't agree with the separation. I think it's childish (as well as the Tennesseean way of handling things) and I think there are either other issues beneath it or we really didn't have a friendship in the first place. I'm hoping for the other issues part.
>
>My phone is on if you want to talk about it.
>
Friend

From Bluetime
TO Friend>
You say there is nothing to have hurt feelins over... but there is. You have made fun of some things that I don't think are funny in the least. Why should anyone tolerate that?

The nun comment was not the first thing you said that bothered me. Every time you made a sex/lesbian joke I want to say, "Ok, I get it, you're a lesbian." I personally think that sex jokes are incredibly childish. Maybe that's why you've had problems with other friends. I've heard a lot of straight people commend those gay people who don't constantly talk about being gay... they felt that it was like some gays were pushing it into their faces that they were gay, and I can't say that I don't agree with that thought. I don't talk about me and Jason all the time, because its personal. I've told you some things, I know, but I stopped talking about it. I know I should have said more to let you know how I felt, but I really thought that explaining to you that I didn't find sex jokes funny would take care of it. I remember telling you that when I explained why I don't like the Bob and Tom show. You were making me feel like you were trying to bait me into saying that I was gay, too. Of all the gay people I've known, you seemed different at first... but then you started with those jokes, and then told me that you are going to make a porn magazine. All of that bothers me to a point that I'm just not willing to tolerate it. I'm sorry.

I think that shutting you out without explaining to you why would be "tennessean", nice insult by the way, but I tried to be honest. You said you liked honesty, so I thought you'd at least want to know why. Asking for us not to talk for a while was more diplomatic than just not picking up the phone, don't you think? Telling you how I feel is not what I'd call giving you the silent treatment, either... what do you think I should have done?

I don't hate you or anything, I hope that you have good luck wherever you go and whatever you do... I just don't think I want to be friends.

Bluetime

From Friend
To Bluetime
There was no baiting going on. And I'm not going to be something that I am not. In fact I am gay. So What. Who gives a ****. You bring it up more than I ever did. And then I get blamed for letting you know what I think and feel. Maybe you didn't accept me at all. But I accepted you. Good luck finding real friends that fit into the box you feel the need to put them in.

Friend

Bluetime--

See, you were asking for it--and it is all your fault (probably because you are provincial with no sense of humor).

I think the command I heard punched on the buttons was, "Crawl abjectly."

I don't think you have to crawl at all.

Ooohhh...

My commentary might be harsher than what nimh said previously, so I'll ask first whether it is desired.

Hmmm.. <bites lip pending what Soz might say>

(If her's isn't wanted you prolly don't want mine! )

I guess I should get in line.

Oh, hey... I'm not saying it went well or anything You all asked what happened, and I have a hard time paraphrasing, so I just put it all up there.

Noddy, I'm not sure what you mean. Could you please rephrase that?

You all are just too nice, which I love, but please don't hold back, its not necessary. I would love to hear how you all would rephrase my thoughts though. I didn't try very hard to be nice, since I was already fed up. I thought it was interesting the way she turned it all around on me in the end. I would love to say... "No, I'm not accepting of rude people."

I think the way she basically told me that I shouldn't have felt the way that I felt was pretty selfish.

Oh well... don't hold back, I don't mind. But if you criticise, I'd love to hear a revision. I wouldn't have posted any of this if I didn't want help. I tried it the nice way several times before, and I guess I just didn't care anymore.

Oh, and if I said anything that any of you thought was good, I'd like to hear that, too

Thanks.

I don't hold a candle to Noddy but I like to fancy that I get what she says.

1) Friend was pulling the "ad humorum" card. Also known as the "'twas jest" card or the "I was only kidding" card.

I once tried this after shooting a friend in the buttocks with a shotgun but it didn't work. Note the date if the story makes ya wonder.

2) Noddy's sayin' that friend was tellin'you to crawl and that you shouldn't need to.

P.S. My take is very different, but I'll let the people over 7 handle it.

Ah, Craven... that's what I thought. Thanks. At least someone thought I didn't do too badly

Hi BlueTime,

OK... I'll take the plunge, then.

I guess I'll start at the beginning. In the IM conversation, from "you're not sensitive...?" to "deal, I was only asking," you had a bunch of opportunities to say things more directly, which you didn't take. You made it all about one comment rather than about the larger issues, and then equivocate all over the place... "sorry", "deal", etc.

I can tell you're really trying to say something else, and your friend can too... later, she really got to the point by saying:



That was your opening to talk about the other issues. Because yeah, it IS other issues (from what you've said here.) It's not actually about that one comment.

I know you have a hard time putting this into words, but yeah, in context, I'd be really confused by the stuff about the sex industry and suffering... especially with the further context of already having a "deal" and your friend already signing off. As far as I can tell, you made it about a) a nun joke, and b) sex industry/ suffering/ focus on feeling good vagueness. You've said things much more clearly here. But from what you excerpt, your friend doesn't have access to that information.

She knows you're upset, and is willing to make deals -- no more implications, since that seems to upset you -- but you still cut her off. That doesn't seem to be enough -- you don't seem to actually be interested in continuing to be friends with her even if she doesn't do that stuff. (How did you guys become friends in the first place?)

It's like:

Friend A: It bothers me when you drink coffee around me. The smell makes me gag.

Friend B: Oh, OK, I like coffee myself but sure if it makes you gag, I won't drink it around you.

Friend A: I don't think we should be friends.

That's major simplification, but if you're going to present the problems, you need to give her a chance to solve those problems. (Especially when you say things like "deal.")

It really seems to me like your most basic problem is with her sexual orientation -- that's OK, you don't have to be friends with her if it makes you that uncomfortable, and it sounds like things are effectively over now so you can just leave it there. But in my opinion, it would have been better to have been honest about that, and to see if you guys could have worked around that when she had all of the information necessary, than effectively not giving her a chance. Or better yet, to have been honest with her and with yourself at the outset, and not nodded and smiled through things that made you uncomfortable to get to the point where she thought you were her friend.

But that's just my opinion. I know these things are complex, and what you have presented here is just a little slice.

Sozobe, those are some good points. I like your analogy there, that was clever! You're right, though... I started the entire discussion wanting to end the friendship. When I was in the middle of the discussion with her, its as if I forgot all that I wanted to say. I don't know why I said, "deal"... ugh, that was dumb.

You asked how we became friends... We met my first year of college. We lived in the same dorm. She was straight... VERY straight. I went into the army... and when I came back after 4 yrs, she delivered a pizza to my apt... and we picked up from there, when she told me she was a lesbian.

I will admit that I'm not that understanding towards homosexuals, but I work with quite a few of them. I don't have a problem with those in my department at school, but they are guys. Now that I think back... I've had nothing but problems with lesbians, and I don't know why.

I'll tell you why I considered her an irritation... I remembered more things as I thought about it. Funny how I put a lot of it out of my mind trying to move past it.

-She wanted to take nude photos of me.
-She sent me daily e-mail FWD's that were jokes either about being gay OR jokes putting down men.
-She decided to make a porn magazine. This is just not something of which I'm going to be supportive. I don't hate porn, but I don't think we need any more.
-She acted like she understood when I expressed that I wasn't interested in any of that stuff.
-and of course the increasingly frequent sex jokes... usually the kind making fun of the possiblility that I'm gay.

Her last message to me was not true in the least... but that was probably obvious.

You're right, these things are very complex. I wish now that I had written a draft and let you all help me revise it

Blue Time--

Sorry to be cryptic. Craven has my number and his paraphrase is much clearer.

My impression after reading the correspondence was that you told your friend you were bothered--and she told you it was all your fault.

You know in your heart of hearts that you waffle and ramble because you hate direct confrontation. Still, your "friend" made no effort to clarify. Instead she tried to take control--and deny that you had any points.

Do you need "friends" like this?

If I can tag onto Soz's comments - I think this paragraph right here explainsa lot. You don't have any problems with gay men because deep down you know that because they are gay there is no sexual pressure in a relationship between you and them. Because of their orientation (and ignoring their gender) you know they aren't interested in you in "that way".

Your friend here though.. Hey, she's a lesbian. So deep down you think, "Hey, maybe she thinks....". Again, because of her orientation the thought creeps in that there is sexual pressure.

Because your friend is physically female you've probably always related to her as you have with any of your other female friends. But, when you found out she's a lesbian you probably got a little confused on how you should relate. Do you continue treating her just like any other female friend or relate as if she were a male??? If so, when do you make that distinction? All the time or just concerning sexual issues?

To me (a total outsider) it looks like that's where you got hung up. It looks like you never made those decisisons. The "sexually male in a female body" concept seems to have you flustered as to how you should act (not that's she's necessarilly sexually male but that's how a lot of straights seem to envision lesbians).

It looks like your friend here was just trying to act like she always has which is probably why she's a bit confused by your reactions.

Noddy, that is so true. I love your insight. I realised that I didn't do a very good job explaining myself, but I thought her reaction was making things even worse. Its like whe was unwilling to try at all to be understanding, OR to stop with the disturbing comments--like the way she wanted to make the deal that I put up with whatever she says. I felt as if I had gone through enough of the 'direct confrontation' already, and she had ignored it. I was flustered.

Fishin', you, too, are right. I was confused, and the way she was acting was making things even harder. She is only the third lesbian I've known, and the first one I've tried to be friends with. The other 2 disliked me from the get go, and I never tried to figure out why... I just left them alone.

A friend of mine, who has had many gay friends and aquaintences told me that this girl was either confused herself, or deliberately rude.

I wish there is some way I can make things clear to this girl how I have been feeling... but I bet every dime I have that it would make things even worse.