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Does "Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and ..." mean...?

 
 
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 09:03 am
Does "Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did" mean "Christians all too often encountered people who think that Christians are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ himself was never arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous?"

Context:
Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did. Consider, for instance, the well-known parable of the Good Samaritan.
 
View best answer, chosen by oristarA
InfraBlue
 
  3  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 10:38 am
@oristarA,
No. It means that to other people Christians come across that way.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 11:03 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

No. It means that to other people Christians come across that way.


Failed to understand you.
Do you mean Christians think that the people they (Christians) encounter (come across) are arrogant?
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 11:18 am
@oristarA,
No, it means to non-Christians, Christians often appear as arrogant, judgmental...
0 Replies
 
contrex
  Selected Answer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 11:23 am
Here we encounter the idiomatic and somewhat slangy phrase "come across as". To "come across" as something is to create the impression in others of having a certain quality or set of qualities, e.g. a person might come across as proud, vain, kind, stupid, cruel, lazy, intelligent, etc.

"My mother comes across as bossy" means "My mother creates the impression in other people that she is bossy".

So "Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous" means "Christians all too often create the impression in others that they are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous"

"All" is an intensifier of "too often".

InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 12:27 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

No. It means that to other people Christians come across that way.


Failed to understand you.
Do you mean Christians think that the people they (Christians) encounter (come across) are arrogant?


What contrex said.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 05:58 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Here we encounter the idiomatic and somewhat slangy phrase "come across as". To "come across" as something is to create the impression in others of having a certain quality or set of qualities, e.g. a person might come across as proud, vain, kind, stupid, cruel, lazy, intelligent, etc.

(1) "My mother comes across as bossy" means "My mother creates the impression in other people that she is bossy".

(2) So "Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous" means "Christians all too often create the impression in others that they are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous"

"All" is an intensifier of "too often".



Excellent!

BTW, I have difficulty in understanding the reference of the pronoun they in (2) above.

(1) is very clear and unambiguous to me, because the pronoun she is absolutely referring to my mother there. But (2) not. It seems to me that they can both refer to "others" or "Christians." How to judge the grammar unmistakably remains a task for me in English.
Doubtful
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 07:04 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
But (2) not. It seems to me that they can both refer to "others" or "Christians." How to judge the grammar unmistakably remains a task for me in English.


I do not know how to explain this in terms of grammar, but if "they" referred to others, the sentence would not make sense. Maybe the grammatical explanation would be that you cannot have a subject (others) and a pronoun that refers to the subject (they) being the subject of the same clause.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 08:53 pm
@Doubtful,
Doubtful wrote:

Quote:
But (2) not. It seems to me that they can both refer to "others" or "Christians." How to judge the grammar unmistakably remains a task for me in English.


I do not know how to explain this in terms of grammar, but if "they" referred to others, the sentence would not make sense. Maybe the grammatical explanation would be that you cannot have a subject (others) and a pronoun that refers to the subject (they) being the subject of the same clause.



subject (others)? object (others)?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Apr, 2013 09:26 pm
@oristarA,
(2) So "Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous" means "Christians all too often create the impression in others that they are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous".

Quote:
BTW, I have difficulty in understanding the reference of the pronoun they in (2) above.

(1) is very clear and unambiguous to me, because the pronoun she is absolutely referring to my mother there. But (2) not. It seems to me that they can both refer to "others" or "Christians." How to judge the grammar unmistakably remains a task for me in English.


Perhaps, InfraBlue misunderstood your description in your original post. I thought you described it perfectly and then Infra seemed to mislead in his answer.

Let me see if this will help.

Try to forget the grammar and look at the semantics, Ori. The "others" are an unnamed, nebulous group. If a speaker wanted to make "others" the focus there would have been language more specific to 'others'.

Christians follow Christ and the teachings of Christ. The comparison is them to Christ.



oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 08:32 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:


Let me see if this will help.

Try to forget the grammar and look at the semantics, Ori. The "others" are an unnamed, nebulous group. If a speaker wanted to make "others" the focus there would have been language more specific to 'others'.

Christians follow Christ and the teachings of Christ. The comparison is them to Christ.


Thank you JTT.
If "they" refer to "others" in the writer's mind, how will you correct the sentence below:
Christians all too often create the impression in others that they are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous.

Supposed I've written the sentence, in which I've thought mistakenly that "they" referred to "others." And you as a reader, naturally think "they" refer to "Christians." But my original intention was indeed to express this:

Christians all too often create the impression in others' hearts that they (others) are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous (and in Christians' hearts, only Christians are humble, kindhearted and good-intentioned and correct)
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 09:19 am
@oristarA,
That is clearly not what the original line meant, but if that is what you are going for, try this:

"Christians often create the impression that they judge others as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous while they are humble, kindhearted and good-intentioned."
Doubtful
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 09:58 am
@oristarA,
I mean if "they" referred to "others," "others" would have to be the subject:

Quote:
"Christians all too often create the impression in others that (they) are arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous"


Now "they" might refer to others.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 10:18 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

That is clearly not what the original line meant, but if that is what you are going for, try this:

"Christians often create the impression that they judge others as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous while they are humble, kindhearted and good-intentioned."


The second "they" looks referring to others or Christians to me.
It seems you meant that "they" only referred to "others."
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:05 am
@oristarA,
Both of the 'they's in engineer's example refer to Christians.



Christians judge others as arrogant ...

Christians are humble ....
oristarA
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:21 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Both of the 'they's in engineer's example refer to Christians.


Christians judge others as arrogant ...

Christians are humble ....


Well, it is a mess now. Drunk
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:25 am
@oristarA,
How about adding a word...

"Christians often create the impression that they judge others as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous while they themselves are humble, kindhearted and good-intentioned."
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:43 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

How about adding a word...

"Christians often create the impression that they judge others as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous while they themselves are humble, kindhearted and good-intentioned."


That has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of the original sentence.

I will state this clearly:

Original sentence

"Christians all too often come across as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did"

"come across as" can be replaced by "seem" or "appear" or "act in a manner that others see as"

Christians all too often seem arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did

Christians all too often appear arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did

Christians all too often act in a manner that others see as arrogant, judgmental, and self-righteous, but Christ never did.

No tricky "theys" to frighten the horses.








engineer
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:52 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

That has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of the original sentence.

True, but Ori asked us for a different sentence with a different meaning several posts ago.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Apr, 2013 11:54 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

contrex wrote:

That has absolutely nothing to do with the meaning of the original sentence.

True, but Ori asked us for a different sentence with a different meaning several posts ago.


Sorry, I missed that.
0 Replies
 
 

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