If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

You contradict yourself, twice

1) It is a perfect thing that they be in the image of God, correct? Is not God free?
So Free will is the perfection of a human and sin the misuse. This is too obvious.

2) You actually see people sin, no? So you shouldn't act surprised ! Do you take that as a person's natural state. how odd. No kidding. When I see an Isis member shoot a baby I think, Yes, the soul is corrupted. THAT is not the way man was created.

They didn't 'sin'. They ate of the tree which God told them that in the day they ate of it, which could be 1000 years with The LORD (2 Peter 3:8), they would surely die.

2 Peter 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

They did, however, transgress, or go against what The LORD God told him.

Oh get this. Did God tell the 'woman' Eve, she could not eat, or did God tell the man, Adam, that 'he' was not to eat?


Genesis 2:15-18 "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him."


Genesis 3:1 "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"


So although they didn't really 'sin', God created the man to be the head of the woman and to keep her and help her as Christ does to and for His Church, which is His Body.

I'm thinking 'head' to mean, Provider/Benefactor/Keeper, etc..

So if the woman, Eve, did not transgress or 'sin' against The LORD God, what happened?


Genesis 3:2-3 "And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. "

If The LORD God did not tell the woman she could not eat, then from whom did she receive the instruction, 'God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it'...?

The LORD God,
God
The LORD
(J)esus.

They are all separate persons.

The LORD God is YHWH and elohim, hence 'YHWH=Elohim'

But if and since God cannot be seen by any, how is it that the woman was told or heard God tell her that she could not eat?

Before Adam had a help meet, Eve, he was told that he was to not eat of a certain tree. After Adam fell asleep and after the LORD God formed for him a help meet, nothing is said as to the reiteration of the warning to both of them. So did Adam tell Eve what was told to him by The LORD God? But since The LORD God told Adam that 'he' was to not eat, why did the woman receive, 'We are not to eat'? Where did she get the 'we' part of 'he'?

So, Adam is told to not eat. The LORD God forms for him a help meet, Eve. Later, the serpent asks Eve if 'she' is not to eat to which she replies 'we' are not to eat. And this causes 'Eve' to actually eat and she then goes and gives the fruit to her husband, Adam. And Adam also eats. Adam was told that in the day he eats of the fruit, he would surely die. Not as a threat but more of a natural physical response to consuming the fruit. And here is where they had their eyes opened and realized they were 'naked' and went and hid themselves.

So even if Eve did eat and if when she offered the fruit to Adam he did not eat, he would not have died. And maybe Eve would have been purged/healed of that which she consumed.

And so here is Earth in the year 2018.

My interpretation of the cautionary tale of Adam and Eve follows. First, my concept of God. God thought of as a personal being prevents understanding. Nature and God are synonymous. God/Nature is His form (beings/matter) plus His Laws governing that form. No unseen being to blame; cause rests with impersonal, inhuman Laws regulating the physical and Divine (abstract) realms.

Though their age is not specified, the figurative 'first couple' are teenagers just past puberty who became fallen angels. Nature: imprudence and sin, you're out; prudence and virtue, you're in (the garden or paradise, figurating a happy life with love and all the greatest blessings). If you're out: spiritual death and a life of misery. All Nature's laws are impersonal, with no room for leniency because Nature is not a person. There are nine Spiritual Laws, the chief of which is the Great Law of Love from which 'hang all the law and the prophets'. Breaking the Great Law with lovelessness is the worst sin.

Nature figuratively 'sets' (simply has) a trap called 'loveless lust' to catch the unwary, uninformed and curious thrill seekers who dare to disregard the warnings of their elders or fall into temptation or both. The danger isn't pregnancy -- but eternal damnation for lust which, if accompanied by higher love for the inner beauty of one's beloved plus a capacity for a lifetime commitment to them -- is fine and not a problem, as lust is natural. However, Nature deems lust not sanctified by higher love etc. -- i.e. 'loveless lust' -- a deadly sin because of the loveless aspect, i.e. just using the sacred power of sex for pleasure, which is figurated by 'eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge' -- i.e. ordinary knowledge re physical world including mechanics of sex without respect for its Divine aspect relating to the tree of life (which every one of us represents as a spiritual being with the potential for Wisdom, Happiness etc.).

I was a porn fan for 50 years and was never damned to hell for it because I truly loved every 'fantasy girlfriend'. Love sanctifies ALL things it pertains to. I had to quit that when I saw an enormous black abyss waiting to swallow me up.

One's Conscience monitors all nine chakras or centres of consciousness spiritual and mental. If it sees the 4th chakra (learning if 'set'; lust if 'not set') has 'no charge' (zero), meaning possible sin, it checks the 9th or love chakra to see if it is 'set' (one) meaning we're loving our partner in the higher sense, for their inner beauty, not just their looks/body). If the love chakra is 'set', our lust is not a sin and we don't take The Fall to become a permanent resident of hell on earth. If lovelessness is indicated (the 9th chakra is 'zero'), we damn ourselves. All through our Conscience! Takes 'my Conscience is my judge' to a new level.

A 'logical inclusive or' operation is done:
4th chakra = 0 OR 9th chakra = 1 equals 1 (no sin)
4th chakra = 0 OR 9th chakra = 0 equals 0 (sin)

Clear as mud? Starting with doubt, prove or disprove all things. We are the only Divine beings with dominion over all -- to us, mysteries are disgraceful.

Truth and Love, Luxin

quote="neologist"]If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?[/quote]
There seems to be an unstated assumption in your question: that sinning is a sign of imperfection. I disagree. People who sin are people who think for themselves rather than slavishly obey. People who sin have the courage of civil disobeidence against a tyrant worse than anything they came up with in North Korea. I am militantly pro-sin. Sin doesn't contradict perfection in the least!

Too many follow the edicts of religious' teachings that are often times contradictory not only within the same religion but between religions. I find it very confusing, because of their inconsistencies.

so how we believe in a book that they said they found ? or you can see it somewhere in the world?

This is a key story and many Christians misunderstand the story of Adam and Eve. It is because they have changed the story to invent their own theology. First, Christians blame Eve to convince Adam to eat from forbidden tree, Quran tell us that it was not Eve's fault but in fact it was both Adam and Eve (I will explain later why is that important). Second, Christians used this to support the concept of original sin and tied that to salvation which was only possible through Jesus. What does Quran say about this?

In Islam is Eve blamed for tempting Adam to eat the fruit?

No, certainly not. Islam preaches that every person is responsible for their own actions. In the Quran Allah (SWT) holds both Adam (pbuh) and Eve (Hawwa) equally responsible for the sin of eating fruit from the tree that He had commanded them to stay away from. They can’t blame one another, as they are both as much responsible human beings as each other. In Islam we will all be made accountable for our own sins, we won’t be able to blame our parents, our brothers or sisters, or our friends or anyone else for that matter.

What about the concept of Original Sin?

This does not exist in Islam. Muslims do not believe that all humans are born with a tendency towards sin, or that we bear actual guilt or responsibility for the sins of our ancestors. Both Adam (pbuh) and Hawwa committed a sin and then asked Allah (swt) for forgiveness and He forgave them both, so there is no question of a hereditary sin in Islam. The Quran tells us:

Instead, Muslims believe we inherited choice from Adam (pbuh) and Hawwa. After committing the sin both Adam (pbuh) and Hawwa were expelled from Paradise and sent to live on earth:

Allah (swt) gave them a choice as to how to live their life on earth, they could either believe in Allah’s (swt) signs and follow the guidance He sent to them or they could reject His laws and face the consequences on the Day of Judgement.


This is the choice that the whole of mankind has inherited from Adam (pbuh) and Hawwa.

If God truly forgave Adam and Eve for their sin why did He expel them from Paradise?

Allah (swt) is Most Merciful. Not only did Allah (swt) accept their repentance He also guided them:

Another verse in the Quran states:


Allah (swt) right from the beginning created Adam (pbuh) with the intention of making him His representative on earth.

The Quran tells us that just before Allah (swt) created Adam (pbuh) He told the angels:

So Adam’s (pbuh) stay in Paradise at the beginning was always only meant to be temporary. However, Allah (swt) did inform Adam (pbuh) that it was possible to return to Paradise if one made the right choices in their life on earth.

What does the Islamic version of the story of Adam and Eve teach us?

The whole story teaches us that Islam is fair and just when dealing with matters relating to men and women.

This story shows us that both men and women are equally capable of following the right path and equally capable of being led astray by Shaytaan (devil) and falling into destructive ways.

It teaches us that humans have free will, and that they alone will be responsible for their choice of action of which they will ultimately face accountability before Allah (swt). In the Quran Allah (swt) tells us:



Allah (swt) tells Shaytaan in the Quran:




How is this story significant to us today?

The story highlights the importance of us acknowledging any sins we commit and then sincerely repenting to Allah (swt) for them. Adam (pbuh), Eve and Iblis/shaytaan (Devil) all disobeyed Allah’s (swt) command, but the clear difference was how they reacted when made aware of their sin. Adam (pbuh) and Eve realized their mistake, and humbly asked for forgiveness, while Ibis, full of pride, was arrogant and refused to even acknowledge he had done wrong. Also, just like Adam (pbuh) and Hawwa we live as free beings on this earth with the choice to follow Allah’s (swt) Divine Guidance, which is available to us in the Quran, or to follow our own self-willed ways under the influence of Shaytaan. Depending on the choice we make we will either spend our afterlife in peace in Heaven or be forever punished in Hell.

To damn the whole human race on one couple is overkill. It's not logical. Besides all that, homo sapiens evolved from primates. That's the conclusion of anthropologists and scientists. We're no more special than the apes. Humans are more dangerous to the whole planet we live on.

Science only explains how things happen, not why. At the same time, there are certain things which we call miracles because for them to happen the physical laws has to be broken. Like the birth of Jesus without father, like splitting of ocean by Moses, like birth of Adam without father and mother etc.

Islam is compatible with all of Darwin’s theory of evolution except in the case of humans. From an Islamic theological perspective, a Muslim can say that Allah inserted a created Adam into the natural order. This would be as if Adam were the last domino placed in a line by Allah. Non-believers would see Adam’s domino as a casual connection or continuation from all the previous dominos, but faithful Muslims would see Adam’s existence for the miracle it was.

Whether you believe in this or not, but the story of Adam and Eve is in Jewish, Christian and Muslims books and they make more than 60% of world populations. You can read this story at your own in OT and in Quran and ecide at your own what makes most sense to you.

You can also choose not to believe in any of that, which does not make any difference to me at all.

The "why" is called nature and evolution. The birth of jesus is fiction. It's based on Greek mythology; born of a virgin has many mythological stories long before your jesus was born of a virgin. http://theconversation.com/friday-essay-virgin-mothers-and-miracle-babies-49889 Homo sapiens is a branch of the ape/primate family of animals. That's the conclusion of anthropologists and scientists. Use a little bit of logic. Why would a "savior appear only 2,000 years ago, when homo sapiens have been around for over 200,000 years? Many gods were created in many countries across this planet; thousands were created by different cultures. This only proves that humans are prone to gods. https://atheism.wikia.org/wiki/How_many_gods%3F Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_sapiens Humans can't accept the fact that our short life on this planet is "all there is." We are born, then we die. That's the cycle of life on this planet. Without death, there is no way for this planet to support and sustain all living things forever. What makes our life so interesting, is the simple fact, that we are the product of all of our past ancestors. I'm Japanese American, but my DNA is Tibetan and Han Chinese. As for myself, I'm glad my life was during this period of human life. I was born in the middle of the Great Depression, but we also experienced great economic growth that provided us with the means to live comfortable lives. I have traveled around the world to 132 countries, and have made friends in many including Germany, France, England, Bhutan, Singapore, Russia, Mexico, and Cuba. I have flown to the top of Mt Everest, and have dipped my feet in the Dead Sea. Visited both the northernmost and southernmost cities of the world; Hammerfest and Ushuaia. I have visited Esperanza Base on Antarctica, and South Georgia Island to visit Ernest Shackleton's grave. I have been on two safaris in South Africa. I have met many interesting people during my travels, and they have all enriched my life. My wife hates to travel, but we just returned from a 8 day trip to San Diego and Los Angeles. We were able to visit the USS Midway in San Diego, and the Hollywood Walk of Fame while in Los Angeles. I'll try to post some photos, if I learn how to do so, later today or tomorrow.

In Quran the evolution is neither denied nor clearly accepted. It is left for interpretation. You can find many resources where Muslims claim that Islam does not deny evolution and you will also find Muslim who totaly reject evolution. There are also Muslims who accept evolution in everything else but not when it comes to human beings. I am not going to argue on something which is not very clearly stated in Quran. It is quite possible that species like humans used to exist on earth but Adam and Eve were specially created just like Jesus was. These are the facts which are stated in Quran. Science has not proven that these are wrong and I believe in these because these are mentioned in Quran by God who knows more than us.

I have seen several of your posts where you condemn injustice, which is great. We should all stand up and speak against injustice. It is not possible to get complete justice in this world. Hereafter is where we will all see the outcome of our deeds. Good people will be rewarded and those who oppressed others will have to face eternal punishment. If you think it that way, religions and life in hereafter would make lot more sense.

Those aren’t miracles, those are myths.

You can't prove that these are myths but I do understand why you are saying this. Because you have not seen it and it does not make sense, hence theists call them miracles.

But let me ask a more serious question. Have you read Quran at your own? You can download any translation you want and read at your own. We can talk when you are finished reading it.

It's simple to prove they are myths. Miracles do not happen; only what nature allows it to happen on this planet. #1: There never was a world flood. How could anyone in those days have traveled all around the world to prove such a flood? #2: It was impossible for Noah's ark to have traveled all the oceans and the continents to collect the species of life that were then available. All the different kinds of food and water to sustain everything on Noah's ark would have been impossible from the point of logistics. #3: How were all the wild animals kept apart from the non-wild animals? #4: Floods are "local."

It's left to interpretation, because when the bible and the quran were written, they had no understanding of science and evolution. There are still too many errors, omissions, and contradictions in both the bible and quran to accept them as "gospel." Gods are the creation of men. Men created thousands of gods. Nature is what controls our lives on this planet; not any god. Even the most faithful of religion are killed by natural disasters. Religious wars have also been a disaster to humans and other living things. A very simple motto to follow is "show care, respect, and dignity to all living things." We don't need any books with thousands of words to teach what is right. Evolution is a proven theory.

I'm curious, if each person is responsible for their actions:
- why so many muslims blame women for placing lustful thoughts in their heads through their manner of dress (this is so common it should not require referencing)

- why laws can exist where a woman is not raped unless it is witnessed by 4 muslim men - if she reports it, she is in fact, the criminal
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/dubai-woman-arrested-gang-rape-uae-sex-crime-local-laws-know-how-common-it-is-a7422336.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/nov/17/saudiarabia.international
https:https://www.learnreligions.com/what-does-islamic-law-say-about-rape-2004208
www.islamicity.org/3012/perversions-of-justice-in-the-name-of-islam/
Surely, if people are responsible for themselves, these sort of things should not be so common in the Islamic world.

Or that speaking out against sexual harrassment in the workplace can turn you into the criminal
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in-egypt-a-metoo-complaint-can-land-a-woman-in-jail/2018/10/24/3a2fe5a0-d6db-11e8-a10f-b51546b10756_story.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_sexual_assault_in_Egypt#cite_note-Abdelmonem2015a-11
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47947117
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/indonesia-pardons-woman-jailed-after-reporting-harassment/11347128

These links were the results of only very brief searches - given the results already there, it appears longer searches would reveal much more...but it appears your claim that the concept of taking responsibility for your own actions is entrenched in the Quran is otherwise wrong, or quite corrupted in several Islamic countries when it comes to applying it to the realm of sexual behaviours.

As a side note - I very much agree with the concept of taking responsibility for your own self.

It's not up to me or anyone else to prove they are myths. They are outlandish ideas completely unsupported by our daily understanding of reality, so the onus is on the claimant to prove they are true, not the other way around. Ridiculous unsupported claims are false by default, right out of the gate, non-starters.

Humanity needs to use that standard of measurement, or every outlandish claim that everyone in the world has about anything (and outlandish claims are countless), would need to be debunked at great cost of time and resource.

And let's be reasonable, all people use this standard of measurement in daily life; is someone comes to you and says there is a dragon waiting in your basement to ambush you the next time you go downstairs, you don't make sure to carry your sword with you. You assume they are wrong and you go downstairs anyway. Your default position is that the person making the ridiculous claim needs to prove it to you first, not the other way around. So we should use the same criteria for all ridiculous claims.

Unfortunately true Islam is not practiced even in most Islamic countries. We see many Muslim women being oppressed in so-called Islamic countries. Second, I don't know the whole back ground of the stories published in the links so, I don't want to comment on those. All I can say that just like in an religion, there are good and bad people in Islam. Yes there is injustices just like in any other societies but these are not due to Islamic teachings. I will advise you not to look at what Muslims do but to look at the source. What does Quran teaches. What does Sharia law teaches?

Now to answer this particular issue, I will quote some verses form Quran and a hadith below in my response and for more details you can look at the links at the end of my reply.

First of all, as a Muslim I believe that Islam is a religion from our creator, means this religion is best in all ways. No matter where, when we apply it, it works perfectly. In case of justice and criminal cases, Islam provides solutions, which eradicate any chance of any woman getting raped at all.

Some solutions include, dis-allowing free mixing of men and women, dis-slowing anything vulgar, like pornography, sexuality and vulgarity in media, Men and women getting married early, etc. Even in that case, if still some woman is raped, then there is absolutely NO bases of this absurd claim that she needs to provide 4 witnesses that she was raped.
The 4 witness thing is only related to this issue in Quran:


Now, as its clear that Islam does not puts burden of proof of rape on shoulders of women. If a woman gets rapes, Quran tells us that how she should prove it? Her own testimony and other available ways to prove rape, will be used.

Here is a hadith about such incident:



Notice that if the guy in above hadith would not have admitted then it would have been difficult to prove that he did actually raped the woman. In that case, the punishment of that guy was 80 lashes as mentioned in Quran. But once he admitted, the punishment for proven adultery in Islam is death penalty. Sounds harsh but that's the way Islam deals with crimes which corrupt the society.

For more details, you can look at following links:

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/does-islam-require-four-witnesses-for-rape/

https://www.learnreligions.com/what-does-islamic-law-say-about-rape-2004208

https://zakirnaikqa.wordpress.com/tag/punishment-for-a-rapist-in-islam/