23
   

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

 
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 04:37 am
Pandora's box anyone?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 04:43 am
@mismi,
Quote:
They understood. God told them not to eat of that tree BEFORE they inhabited the garden.


That is incorrect. Read Genesis again and you will see that it is.

Quote:
Maybe like children they did not understand what "you will surely die" fully means but that is just a guess - but they knew it was wrong to eat of that tree.


That is incorrect. They did not know anything was right or wrong. That is the point of the story. Until they ate of the fruit of the tree...they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

How many times does that have to be pointed out.

Quote:
And he did give them a choice.


But he specifically withheld from them the knowledge that there is a "right" choice and a "wrong" choice.

The story is childish...and is defective.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 04:45 am
@neologist,
Quote:
So, obviously there must have been more to it.


Yup.

Either it is a very defective allegory...

...or the god is a psychopath.

I suspect it is a very defective allegory.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 05:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
You assume that they had not been around long enough to observe death. Quite a stretch, Frank.


Why is that a stretch? Everything happens at breakneck speed in Genesis. And even if they had observed death...why would they assume it to be bad as opposed to good? They did not know the difference between the two.
Thousands of years are compressed into a few sentences. Creative days are not 24 hour days. Anyone who reads Genesis 2:4 should understand that. And, Frank: Don't you think it somewhat ridiculous to claim they did not understand death? . . . C'mon!
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Don't know haw many times the very same bible you love to quote also says a thousand years to God is as a day. Also, that I just pointed out the 7th day has not yet ended.

I see. Well...why not quote as many times as you can where it does say that. No insult intended, but I really prefer not to take your word on it.
I could only find two:
(Psalm 90:4) 4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a
watch during the night.

(2 peter 3:9) However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day
is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day
Frank Apisa wrote:
And if it meant that they would not die for thousands of years...wouldn't it have been a rather empty threat?
Compared to living forever, yes. They would still be alive had they obeyed.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
This must be very difficult for you Frank.


No...not difficult at all. I've written about this dozens of times here and in other forums. It is easy.
Repeating the same misinformation over and over is typical of government workers. I thought you were retired
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Why don't you just say the whole thing is an allegory and you don't believe it?


Okay...best guess I can make is that it is an allegory...and a rather poorly conceived one at that. I do not consider it to be anything more than a rather poorly conceived allegory.

Right along, Neo, I have been talking about the defects in the construct.

So with that out of the way, now what?
This allegory is referred to in other parts of the same bible you love to quote. For example: (John 8:44)" . . .YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. " If Jesus reportedly said Satan was lying, why would you disagree? It's in the same bible. Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 06:10 am
@neologist,
Quote:
Thousands of years are compressed into a few sentences. Creative days are not 24 hour days. Anyone who reads Genesis 2:4 should understand that. And, Frank: Don't you think it somewhat ridiculous to claim they did not understand death? . . . C'mon!


Anyone who reads Genesis should recognize that it is almost certainly a rather absurd mythology, Neo. And since the absurd myth tells us that neither Adam not Eve knew the difference between what is good and what is badl...why would you think it "ridiculous" to claim they did not know?????

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Don't know haw many times the very same bible you love to quote also says a thousand years to God is as a day. Also, that I just pointed out the 7th day has not yet ended.

I see. Well...why not quote as many times as you can where it does say that. No insult intended, but I really prefer not to take your word on it.

I could only find two:
(Psalm 90:4) 4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, And as a
watch during the night.

(2 peter 3:9) However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day
is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day


Actually, you only found one, because the Psalm quote is about as ambiguous as you can find.

So...you actually used the term "I don't know how many times..." (a euphemism for "lots of times")...and you could only come up with one instance. I kinda thought that was an exaggeration, which is the reason I asked.
Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
This must be very difficult for you Frank.



No...not difficult at all. I've written about this dozens of times here and in other forums. It is easy.

Repeating the same misinformation over and over is typical of government workers. I thought you were retired


Nice try...no cigar. There is no disinformation in what I am writing. If you want to give me a specific instance of "disinformation" in my posts here so far, do so...and we can discuss that specific.

Quote:
This allegory is referred to in other parts of the same bible you love to quote. For example: (John 8:44)" . . .YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. " If Jesus reportedly said Satan was lying, why would you disagree? It's in the same bible. Frank.


I have no idea of what you are suggesting here at all? Do you?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 01:00 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Anyone who reads Genesis should recognize that it is almost certainly a rather absurd mythology, Neo. And since the absurd myth tells us that neither Adam not Eve knew the difference between what is good and what is badl... (text removed)......
I have no idea of what you are suggesting here at all? Do you?
What I'm saying is if you believe the entire thing to be a fable, how can you profess to interpret it? Since Jesus (in his section of the fable) apparently believes its beginning, why don't you simply declare the entire thing an allegory and say you don't believe it?

Jesus calls Satan a liar and a manslayer. Kind of obligates me to look beyond your exegesis, don't you think?

And, wow! The remainder of Genesis, ch 3 predicts how things will turn out
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 01:20 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
What I'm saying is if you believe the entire thing to be a fable, how can you profess to interpret it?


Easy. Give it a try...you'll see.

The apparent fable (or myth) tells us certain things...and those things can certainly be discussed...which is what we are doing.

I can look at what I consider to be a myth...an allegory...and comment on its content. You mean you cannot?

If you want to call the discussion "interpretation"...fine with me.


Quote:
Since Jesus (in his section of the fable) apparently believes its beginning, why don't you simply declare the entire thing an allegory and say you don't believe it?


Because we are having a discussion about the absurdity of certain elements of the perceived myth. Why are you getting all worked up about a discussion of this sort?

Quote:
Jesus calls Satan a liar and a manslayer. Kind of obligates me to look beyond your exegesis, don't you think?


Really? I don't think anything that Jesus said obligates me in any way. Why do you think it does?

And what does Satan being a liar have to do with what we are discussing?

Quote:
And, wow! The remainder of Genesis, ch 3 predicts how things will turn out


Oh wow. You mean the people who invented the myth actually predicted how the myth was going to end. Who ever woulda thunk that?

Are you just joking around here, Neo...or do you realize that your defense of this myth is hopeless?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot, Neo. We were having a discussion...and you seem to want to limit my part of the discussion so that...

...well, I don't know why.

Why?
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 01:33 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Did the true God set a sinister trap? Or, did he just screw things up? Maybe some other explanation?
Since god created all things, and god is perfect, then everything associated with god must also be perfect (else god could not be perfect), thus sin is perfect.

If you got a problem with that, it must be a perfect problem with a perfect solution. So what's the problem, everything is perfect!
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 04:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Genesis 2:
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”


This was told to Adam prior to making Eve...so at the very least Adam knew - but he ate anyway - HE knew it was wrong.

and then in Genesis 3:

Quote:
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


She told the serpent she knew.

Not that it really matters. Smile To be quite honest I am not the type that will beat my head against the wall. I am NOT hard headed therefore I know when to stop.

And so I shall. Regardless of whether you see what I see or not.



Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 04:48 pm
@mismi,


Quote:
This was told to Adam prior to making Eve...so at the very least Adam knew - but he ate anyway - HE knew it was wrong.


The story explicitly states that neither Adam nor Eve KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG.

What is the matter with you that you cannot get that through your head.

You keep insisting that he knew it was wrong...but the Bible story in Genesis specifically says they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

That was the whole point of the god refusing them permission to eat the fruit...because it would give them the knowledge of right and wrong.


Quote:


She told the serpent she knew.

Not that it really matters. To be quite honest I am not the type that will beat my head against the wall. I am NOT hard headed therefore I know when to stop.

And so I shall. Regardless of whether you see what I see or not.



Okay, stop then, because you are wrong according to the Bible. The entire basis of the story is that NEITHER ADAM NOR EVE KNEW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG...and the god was determined to keep it that way. That, in fact, was the reason the god told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of right and wrong.

So for you to insist that they knew...and knew it was wrong...when the story itself tells you that they DID NOT KNOW makes no sense.



mismi
 
  2  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 05:03 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
What is the matter with you that you cannot get that through your head.


You seem to be in this more for the fight than actually trying to help in understanding. I have had very little, if any contact with you prior to this. So it seems to me that your inflammatory statement (or question) above is unnecessary. I am very willing to see what you are trying to tell me. You just aren't doing a very good job of it. Your telling me that it says that - proves nothing. Give me the chapter and verse in Genesis...I will be glad to read it and will gladly change my mind if it indeed says that.

I have read Genesis. Many times - and it may very well be that I am slow - or not quite up to your level of thinking. But until you can show me what you mean...here I stand.



Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 05:15 pm
@mismi,
Mismi...

...the story itself tells you what I have been telling you.

In Genesis Chapter 2, particularly verses 8 & 17...the set up is set out. In Chapter 3 verse 11...the god acknowledges that Adam and Eve had JUST GAINED the knowledge of good and evil...and he acknowledged that it had to be gained by having eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Obviously the two did not know of good and evil before they ate of the fruit.

Read it...do not read it as you see fit.

What I have been saying is obvious from the story itself...and I have tried to be reasonable and courteous, but your instance on "they knew it was wrong" despite all the discussion is beyond comprehension.

We are only talking about events that happen in the first 5 pages of the Bible. It is not as though I have asked you to refresh your memory by reading the entire Bible.
0 Replies
 
33export
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 06:04 pm
Refer to link Holy Bible as a handy reference.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 09:35 pm
@Chumly,
Chumly wrote:

neologist wrote:
Did the true God set a sinister trap? Or, did he just screw things up? Maybe some other explanation?
Since god created all things, and god is perfect, then everything associated with god must also be perfect (else god could not be perfect), thus sin is perfect.

If you got a problem with that, it must be a perfect problem with a perfect solution. So what's the problem, everything is perfect!
Good to see you again, Chumly. True. At the end of the sixth day, God declared his works 'good'. So we may assume, I guess, he considered things perfect.

But both the Hebrew word Chattath and the Greek hamartia carry with them the connotation of missing a goal or mark. That would define sin as imperfection, or moral imperfectoin, if you will. Not so good, I suspect.
But keep in mind the seventh day has not yet been recorded as having ended.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 09:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
neo wrote:
Quote:
Jesus calls Satan a liar and a manslayer. Kind of obligates me to look beyond your exegesis, don't you think?
Really? I don't think anything that Jesus said obligates me in any way. Why do you think it does?

And what does Satan being a liar have to do with what we are discussing?
I didn't say it obligated you. It obligates me.

Satan challenged God's statement that they would die if they ate the fruit, effectively calling God a liar, as did you.
Jesus called Satan a liar.

That obligates me
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Mar, 2013 10:03 pm
@mismi,
Don't take Frank's bluster too seriously, mismi.

He's a prince, really.

I suspect he has been a professed agnostic so long, he suffers from intellectual inertia.

So, stick around. OK?
0 Replies
 
phammond
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 04:21 am
@mismi,
If Adam Was Perfect, How Was It Possible for Him to Sin?
It was possible for Adam to sin because God created him with free will. That gift is not at all in conflict with the fact that Adam was perfect. In truth, only God is perfect in the absolute sense. (Deuteronomy 32:3, 4; Psalm 18:30; Mark 10:18) Perfection in anyone or anything else is limited. For example, a knife might be perfect for cutting meat, but would you use it for eating soup? A thing is perfect only in relation to its purpose.
For what purpose, then, did God create Adam? It was God’s objective to produce through Adam a race of intelligent people with free will. Those who wanted to cultivate their love for God and his ways would show this by choosing to obey his laws. Obedience was therefore not programmed into man’s thinking faculties but would spring voluntarily from the heart. (Deuteronomy 10:12, 13; 30:19, 20) Thus, if Adam had lacked the ability to choose disobedience, he would have been incomplete—imperfect. As to how Adam chose to use his free will, the Bible record shows that he followed his wife in disobedience to God’s law concerning “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”—Genesis 2:17; 3:1-6.
Well, then, did God create Adam with a moral weakness, so that he lacked the ability to make sound decisions or to withstand temptation? Prior to Adam’s disobedience, Jehovah God had examined all of his earthly creation, including the first human pair, and had determined that it was “very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Thus, when Adam sinned, his Creator did not need to correct some design flaw but rightly placed the blame squarely on Adam. (Genesis 3:17-19) Adam had failed to let love for God and right principle motivate him to be obedient to God above all.
Consider, too, that Jesus when on earth was a perfect man like Adam. Yet, Jesus, unlike other descendants of Adam, was conceived as a result of holy spirit and thus inherited no vulnerability to temptation. (Luke 1:30, 31; 2:21; 3:23, 38) Jesus of his own volition remained loyal to his Father despite the strongest pressures. Adam, in exercising his own free will, was personally responsible for his failure to obey Jehovah’s command.
Why, though, did Adam choose to disobey God? Did he believe that he would improve his situation in some way? No, for the apostle Paul wrote that “Adam was not deceived.” (1 Timothy 2:14) However, Adam decided to accede to the wishes of his wife, who had already chosen to eat from the forbidden tree. His desire to please her was greater than his desire to obey his Creator. Surely, upon being presented with the forbidden fruit, Adam should have paused to reflect on the effect that disobedience would have on his relationship with God. Without a deep, unbreakable love of God, Adam was vulnerable to pressure, including that from his wife.
Adam sinned before fathering children, so all his descendants have been born imperfect. Yet, like Adam, we have the gift of free will. May we choose to meditate appreciatively on Jehovah’s goodness and build a strong love for God, who is worthy of our obedience and worship.—Psalm 63:6; Matthew 22:36, 37.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 04:42 am
This is what I understand, bear in mind I am no scholar, but a keen reader

My understanding of the word "Perfect" that you use means without sin, which is defined as the act of violating God's will. Sin can also be viewed as anything that violates the ideal relationship between an individual and God

According to scripture, did God not tell Adam and eve that which was wrong? Right was whatever Gods will would be, He gave Adam and Eve just one wrong, one restriction, something that acted as an indicator as to Adam and Eve's serving him out of choice.

Adam and Eve however would not have had knowledge of all that was wrong, only that which God shared. So no other action was punishable by him. That is not of course to say that God would not advise against actions as they arose down the line.

The scriptures show that God explicitly shared the knowledge that the eating of the tree was against his will, or bad. He even said what would happen if they did. The serpent however sought to undermine his authority

4At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU​ positively will not die.5For God knows that in the very day of ​YOUR​ eating from it ​YOUR​ eyes are bound to be opened and ​YOU​ are bound to be like God, ​KNOWING​ good and bad.” Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it.

So Eve was presented with two conflicting pieces of information. Gods warning, and a serpents story. The Serpent offered her something that drew out her desire, that she could "be like God" Eve chose to know or decide for herself what was right or wrong rather than to be instructed by God, therefore she chose to follow her own will rather than Gods, and in turn Adam followed suit thus removing mankind from Gods favor. That is why all man through one is born into sin.

Men have been serving the will of womankind ever since Razz
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 04:43 am
@phammond,
Of what possible use could this supposed "free will" be to Adam or Eve...if they did not know right from wrong?

Any reasonable guess about the Adam and Eve story has to conclude that it is an allegory attempting to explain the human predicament...and the people who invented the story did a faulty job of it.

The story contains as an essential element that neither Adam nor Eve knew there was such things as right/wrong/sin/evil/good. Another essential element of the story is that the god wanted to insure that they never find out those things...which was the reason he ordered them not to eat the fruit of the tree that would give them that knowledge.

But the plan of the people writing the allegory was for humans to disobey...so they had the god put that tree smack dab in the middle of the garden...and then made sure there was someone there to tempt them into disobeying. Combine all those things with the fact that neither of them knew there was anything whatever WRONG with disobeying...

...and any five-year-old would tell you how things would work out.

The story is absurd...and anyone who would defend it the way some of you are must be numb with fear of this god. Considering what the god did in the story of the garden of Eden...I don't blame you people.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 07:04 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, You are running with the assumption that they did not know that they were not supposed to do what they were told not to do. I struggle to find cause to agree.

Your essential element ignores the idea that they were told what was wrong when they needed to know it. At this point they were given just ONE wrong. ONE thing they could not do. he gave them EVERY other tree, just one of them belonged to god. This is mine, do not touch it. It was simple.

It was a simple choice of Gods will or their own. They chose to follow their own will. He informed them of what not to do, and what consequences would occur if they did.

Quote:
god wanted to insure that they never find out those things...which was the reason he ordered them not to eat the fruit of the tree that would give them that knowledge.

Ironically, according to the story, that is exactly what the serpent told Eve.

Quote:
he made sure there was someone there to tempt them into disobeying

did you know that it is written that God brought animals before Adam to "see what he would call them." so God showed a curiosity toward mans choices. Other scriptures state that we can make God proud or regretful over our choices. This is no different. Allowing the serpent to challenge Adam and Eve was not the same as "making sure someone was there to tempt them" however we are not talking about 5 year olds. It is believed Adam was at least 30 years of age before Eve was created, they had shared their lives with God in Eden for years, perhaps decades when this incident occured, therefore is it not logical to understand they were pretty well informed before they made their choice.

It was reasonable that God would allow a challenge to see what they would decide. If he did not trust them to be challenged, what was the point of free will? Is God wrong to trust his creations to obey him? if so are any parents wrong to allow a level of trust to their children? remember we are talking about children that are at likely at least 30 years old.

In the story I read, I dont see a reason for numbing fear.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 11/24/2020 at 07:48:23