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If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

 
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 06:15 am
@izzythepush,
Found it (Timothy) no, haven’t read it, but I was hooked from the first paragraph.
I’ll give it a fair read then comment.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 06:26 am
@Leadfoot,
It's in the same category as Valis and The Divine Invasion both of which re-examine Christian mythology.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Feb, 2020 07:52 pm
@izzythepush,
Was curious, so I looked it up, because I never heard of it before. Here's what I found. quote: Valis (novel) - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS
The Divine Invasion Valis (stylized as VALIS ) is a 1981 science fiction novel by American writer Philip K. Dick . The title is an acronym for Vast Active Living Intelligence System , Dick's gnostic vision of one aspect of God.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Feb, 2020 12:58 am
@cicerone imposter,
I've not read them for a long time but they are really good. Dick is a really good writer Palmer Eldrich is very good, it really is.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Feb, 2020 09:36 pm
@izzythepush,
Got a couple of books on my nightstand I haven't touched for months.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Feb, 2020 09:12 am
@izzythepush,
Still a long way from finished but that first paragraph triggered me. Apologies for running on.

Quote:
First paragraph, The Transmigration of Timothy Archer, by PKD:

Barefoot conducts his seminars on his houseboat in Sausalito. It costs a hundred dollars to find out why we are here on earth. You also get a sandwich but I wasn’t hungry that day. John Lennon had just been killed and I think I already knew why we are here on this Earth; it’s to find out that everything you love the most will be taken away from you, probably due to an error in high places rather than by design.


First off, I just dig his writing style, it’s very compact but nuanced. I feel like I know a lot about the narrator after just this short paragraph. I can feel my feet sliding into his or her shoes.

Ten years ago I would have delivered a sermon about how the writer had the wrong idea about what they can expect in life and whether it is by design. But Now I would only argue with the latter, at least in my own experience. I got what I loved the most taken away repeatedly, and I am certain it was by design.

I wrote last week in the 'What do you Worship' thread that I was a theist early on but had picked up the idol of 'Family' along the way, possibly because I didn’t really have one. I wanted one and society and religion fully approved of that goal so its no surprise that lots of people think of Family as the normal and proper goal in life. But I was probably more obsessed than most. I’m surprised I didn’t end up becoming a Mormon or a JW, they worship family with such devotion that they willingly and literally give up heaven in favor of 'Family forever'. The biggest TV preacher's organization name is “Family First”. They probably never thought about what they are doing as breaking the first commandment. I didn’t for a long time.

So yeah, I had what I loved the most taken away and it took many repetitions before I understood that it was by design and I needed to find out why.

In retrospect I am grateful, but there was a time that I hated the designer for it. I often wonder what it is in the short time following that crisis that determines which way a soul decides to go. It could so easily have gone the other way for me.

I generally hate that New Age koan ****, but this was true; I could not see what my inner most desire was until I what I loved here the most was taken away.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Feb, 2020 10:02 am
@Leadfoot,
It's very good. Without giving away too much I can say it's not at all cut and dried. The new age stuff isn't treated with too much reverence either.

I know what you mean. I could never get into Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance because too many hippies told me to read it.
0 Replies
 
Jkeng
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2020 08:51 pm
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

Image is described as having a likeness, likeness is described as being similar, having a semblance to, and exact likeness is described as being a copy, a clone.

Nowhere in the Bible can I find where He made man perfect. We are made in his image. God bless you.
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2021 12:33 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

Hmmm...

Well - is it not possible to be perfectly made and choose evil? Adam and Eve were NOT all knowing - which is why they were able to be persuaded to eat of the fruit of good and evil. Had they been content with their lot they would have continued to enjoy the perfection of the garden and their existence. But they were not. They wanted more.


The perfect, or good, as scriptures calls our Genesis, will choose to sin and do evil.

That is what Christians sing, as they sing of Adam's sin as being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

We are evolving creatures, who must compete, and in that way, create losers to our competitions who will feel that evil has befallen them.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2021 12:35 pm
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

neologist wrote:
Maybe some other explanation?

The whole story is a complete fantasy and makes no sense at all (or is that too obvious?).


It makes a lot of sense, but not if read literally.

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2021 12:38 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:

Were Adam and Eve perfect? If they did not know all things - doesn't that leave out something?

They were made in form, perfect. They were without sin, without physical blemish, but as far as their capabilities - they were limited. But yes - they could choose.


You cannot choose from good and evil, when you have yet to taste of them.

It would be like me asking you to choose between variable, without knowing the variables.

That is why A & E did not reproduce till after their, --- eyes were opened to the variables.

Regards
DL

0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2021 12:42 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
they did not know right from wrong before they ate the fruit of the tree.
Good vs.bad. Right vs. wrong. Do you not suppose that a loving and almighty God would have given each of his intelligent creatures a conscience? How do most of mankind innately understand it is wrong to murder? Conscience.
And why have so many convinced themselves that under certain conditions it is OK to murder? That's what's left of conscience once folks begin to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad.


Yes. Better to follow Yahweh a genocidal satanic garbage god, who kills when he could just as easily cure.

So much for that pricks conscience, which you seem to like.

You like evil.

Regards
DL


0 Replies
 
Greatest I am
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2021 12:45 pm
@Jkeng,
Jkeng wrote:

“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

Image is described as having a likeness, likeness is described as being similar, having a semblance to, and exact likeness is described as being a copy, a clone.

Nowhere in the Bible can I find where He made man perfect. We are made in his image. God bless you.


You might be in Yahweh's genocidal image, but most of us are not of your ilk.

Yahweh murdered A & E by neglect and locking away what would have kept them alive.

That is murder by neglect and intent in secular law terms and Yahweh is guilty of it.

Right?

Regards
DL
0 Replies
 
davidsheep88
 
  0  
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2021 09:13 pm
@neologist,
No, no, no it was the devil, man was innocent it was he's fault nether G-d. He's original plan was for him to be in the garden of Eden and be happy. The devil who is the enemy thwarted the way it was going to be and the fall of man came.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 05:28 am
@davidsheep88,
davidsheep88 wrote:

No, no, no it was the devil, man was innocent it was he's fault nether G-d. He's original plan was for him to be in the garden of Eden and be happy. The devil who is the enemy thwarted the way it was going to be and the fall of man came.


One of the most absurd myths ever.

Whoever thought it up should have written books for kids with intellectual developmental problems.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 05:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Isn’t God supposed to have made everything, including the Devil?

Isn’t he supposed to be omniscient, meaning that when he created the Devil he was fully aware of what he would do?

That makes God culpable.

When Oppenheimer created the atomic bomb he didn’t blame Truman for dropping it. He took responsibility.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 06:56 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Isn’t God supposed to have made everything, including the Devil?

Isn’t he supposed to be omniscient, meaning that when he created the Devil he was fully aware of what he would do?

That makes God culpable.

When Oppenheimer created the atomic bomb he didn’t blame Truman for dropping it. He took responsibility.


Yup.

I have no problem with myth. I suppose every privative society attempts to address the mystery of the unknown.

BUT...the story of an omniscient GOD making the kinds of obvious errors inherent in the Eden story...is an absurdity.

Anything based on it should be shitcanned. Which Christians cannot do, because the story is essential to "original sin", to "sin", to the "need for redemption"...and most particularly, to the notion of the need for a REEDEMER.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 07:13 am
@Frank Apisa,
The Gnostic interpretation is very different. The serpent is the good guy, telling Adam and Eve the truth about how they were taken by the Demiurge and leading them towards Gnosis and rejoining the true God.

Gnostics also regard it as a myth.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 12:57 pm
@izzythepush,
God appeared too late in human history. Besides that, scientists have determined that we evolved from the great apes. Based on the bible, this planet is 7000 year old. According to scientists, it's more than 4.5 billion years old. Which do you believe? Earth itself is a bit more than 4.5 billion years old, and the researchers hope the new finding offers insights into the formation of the moon and the first continents. The Jack Hills rocks formed only about 160 million years after the formation of the solar system—which is surprisingly early.
Reference:
Earth's Oldest Crust Dates to 4.4 Billion Years Ago
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2021 01:17 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I never said I believed in Adam and Eve.

 

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