If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

My proof is Quran. Read it and hope you will find answer to your questions.

It's not proof of anything other than the prophet's testimony.

If you are claiming a miracle has happened then the onus is on you to prove it. If I'd said there was an alien living next door to me, it wouldn't be down to you to disprove it, it would down to me to verify it.

If there is no evidence for anything, (other than stories,) and the apparent event goes against scientific orthodoxy then it can only be considered a myth unless things change.

You claimed DNA and blood could be changed... I'm still waiting for that bit of info to be proven.

Did you read the proof I presented? Please read it before we go further on this argument.

I never said any such thing.

What I said was that gender identity is a very complex issue and that your simplistic approach was meaningless.

There are doctors who specialise in this and they know that gender dysphoria starts in the womb and is to do with the release of hormones.

It doesn't affect the bloodgroup. That was your moronic claim.

You're a bigot looking to justify your own foul ideology. You just hate people because that's the type of creature you are, you hate LGBT people, you hate people who are darker than you, you hate children, you hate Muslims and you hate foreigners.

I don't want to talk to you. You have nothing to offer, your attitude fills me with disgust and your need to have everything explained to you is very annoying.

I'm trying to have a conversation with a Muslim gentleman, and we don't need any more of your bigotry, so go back to fantasising about Sandy Hook or licking Trump's arse or whatever else it is you people do.

I've read some of the Koran, but I'm not going to read all of it, and if you insist on that you're not going to get anywhere.

People will read something because they find it of interest and want to know more. They won't do it because someone petulantly stamps their foot and insists they read it before discussions can continue.

Most Americans see Islam as 9/11, terrorism and cruel treatment of women and children. Do you think people like that are going to read a book they believe advocates all of that? Because it ain't ever going to happen.

Stop making demands of people, you need to persuade, and you're not being very persuasive.

Take it easy, I am not pushing anything down the throat to read Quran. Someone asked me for a proof and I said read Quran. If someone want to go further then they can read it or leave it. It does not affect me at all. All I am saying is that Quran is one of the living miracles. A book preserved for over 1400 years and including many scientific facts which were not known to Arabs 1400 years ago. The only living miracle we have right now is Quran. If one disagrees without reading and doing research on it, would be called an ignorant.

I am an American and I know how media portraits Islam to Americans and Westerns. Those who want to look into Islam after these attacks, have looked into it and many have accepted Islam as way of life including myself. There are still some who trust in media more than anything else and media shapes their views so good luck to them for following something they themselves call as a lie.

By the way, I thought you believed in Jesus and it is strange that you are the one also questioning miracles of God?

Where did I say that?

The only pronouncement I've made about my own beliefs is that I'm not religious.

Although it doesn't stop people like you calling me a Christian and people like J Goldman calling me someone who hates Christians. A lot of Christians call me Atheist and a lot of Atheists call me Christian.

Isn't it supposed to be my choice?

This started off sounding good.

Then degenerates.


So the woman must produce 4 people who witnessed the rape - ie. 4 people who stood there watching as she was raped. And they had to stand there watching, because unless they were there from the start up until the actual act of the rape, the woman would not be able to prove rape.

This would be even worse for a Non-Muslim in a muslim country because Muslims are not to take the word of a non-muslim over muslims.

Where then is there any chance of justice, in a real world situation of a non-muslim woman being raped by a muslim man in a muslim country?

By the way - I read your example. It has a few problems:
- it provides the example of a Muslim woman (so doesn't deal with non-muslims)
- the offender admits to the rape (so it doesn't deal with no admission incidents, which makes it's application to such nebulous, and doesn't deal with the issue of believability that you raised)

So far your post ideologically appears supportive of such an ugly, ugly law....but in relation to the links - I'm heading off to work and don't have time at the moment for the links. I'll read them when I get back. Presumably they will be a bit better than the short version you published.

I said this based on your posts on some other threads but of course you proved that my assumption is wrong. I apologize for my misunderstanding and of course you are free to choose whatever belief system you want to believe.

I have always found you to be very reasonable when I read your posts and I am sure you are. But sometimes we have pre-notions about few things and we only read what we want to read. Or may be you were in a hurry and you did not take enough time to read my post but jumped to conclusions, that is not very reasonable. Anyways I give you benefit of doubt and looking forward to your reply after you read my previous post again and after you look at the links I provided.

Below is what I said in my previous post.



Where does it say woman need to provide 4 witnesses for her rape?

Thank you. It's always best not to make assumptions.

I remember a programme where a man converted to Islam from Christianity, travelled to speak to an Imam in Jerusalem who told him he'd been wasting his time, that both Christianity and Islam are going to the same place and he was just wasting time changing carriages.

I think he might have been a Sufi, I have a lot of time for them.

That's is why I suggest people to read Quran. It talks by itself and it is the main source of Muslim's belief system.

Now that does not mean that one has to accept Islam after they are finished reading Quran. As you said, religion or belief system is a personal choice and I hope everyone makes that decision after looking into all the religions without any bias and choose one which makes most sense to them.

This also does not mean that you have to read entire Quran before we continue our dialogue. You can read a page or two and ask any questions you may have. AT least this will provide a better understanding of what Muslims belive and why. Dialogue is necessary for us to understand each other and get along in the society. Misinformation on the other side, leads to hatred and chaos in the society. I hope that we will continue our dialogue in a respectful way.

It is always pleasure talking to you. I remeber when I joined this forum, you were the first one to tell me that there are some people who have extreme views about Islam and it is best to ignore them. I have been following that advice and it is working great.

I don't waste time reading religious fiction. I enjoy comic books too much! Peanuts and Dagwood are a couple of favorites.

Do what you like CI. We are all different and have different interests.

Every religion says the same thing about their book, whatever it is. There are thousands, and you are just another voice in the chorus making the same preposterous claims. And the questions I want answers to, come from understanding, not faith. So no, I’m not going to read the Quran or the Bible or anyone else’s book. If I want to read a fantasy book I’ll find one that entertains me rather than insults my intelligence.

My apologies I did indeed misread your response - likely a consequence of getting ready for work at the same time (and it was 5am in the morning here).

The links make things a little clearer regarding rape in the Quran - of a muslim woman. So with that said - my original question still begs answering - if it is a non-muslim accusing a muslim man of rape, is this what is causing the confusion? Does such a verse still apply, and who does a muslim believe?

I said that DNA and blood tests reveal someone's sex and gender, regardless what what someone claims they are, you can't deny the science and you tried some BS about having completed first year biology and had more info than I did. I wanted proof of this biological proof, but you just pulled the same old crap you always pull and said I wouldn't understand. When confronted with biology you ran and hid.


Got any links or proof of this claim? That's the other thing, you give opinion as fact and don't back up your scienceless claims.


Blood typing does include sex. In the early days of detective work, that was all they had to go on for a clue as to who a victim would have been if there was no body and nothing but blood at the scene.


I'm justifying biological science, why are you anti-science? You are a science denier. I'm nothing close to a bigot, that would be you looking in the mirror.


You are wrong on all points. I don't hate anyone, that would be your side of the aisle. Disagree with liberal and leftist logic and your a bigot and some sort of "hater". I don't hate LGBT+ people, I just disagree with trans-ideology, the surgical mutilation of adults and the abuse of children by providing them with hormone blockers. As for people who are darker than me, I'm sure my ex-wife who is black and my mixed race children will find that comical.

Muslims? No, I hate Muslim terrorists and you just happen to be an apologist for such groups. If it's extreme and anti-American, you are all for it.

Children? Nope, I like children and look forward to be a grandparent in a few years.

Foreigners? Nope, I have no problem with foreigners. I have a problem with illegal immigrants and people using false claims of asylum to gain entry to the US. If you wanna come to the US, do it the right way and come legally, don't break our laws and then demand benefits and citizenship.

I gotta love they way you twist these little exchanges from having to defend your BS to personal attacks on other posters. It's the old diversion tactic to keep you from defending your own opinions and instead turn people to defending themselves from your BS personal attacks.

Non-Muslims have so many rights in Islam, I have provided a link below for you to look at some of the rights which non-Muslims have:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/374/viewall/rights-of-non-muslims-in-islam/

Now to answer your question, Islam applies the principle of equality in its treatment of Muslims and non-Muslims. Islam ordains that non-Muslims living in a Muslim state or in a state under Muslim rule have the same rights and obligations as their fellow Muslims. They are subject to the Muslim laws of justice except in matters concerning their religion. Accordingly their faith and beliefs are respected by the state and the community in which they live. There are many examples of this is the article for which I provided the link above.

I also acknowledge that unfortunately now a days most Muslim countries dont practice what Islam teaches and that alone pushes people away from Islam. That's the reason I request everyone to read the source of Islamic teaching which is Quran. Read that at your own and dont go the the websites which are created by Isalmophobes to spread the hate.

I know you're desperate to talk to me but the feeling is not mutual. You disgust me, you're thoroughly dishonest and you're not very bright.

I have better things to do than talk to you.