23
   

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 02:56 pm
@mismi,
Quote:

They were made in form, perfect. They were without sin, without physical blemish, but as far as their capabilities - they were limited. But yes - they could choose.


Limited???

They were without the knowledge of good and wrong (or evil). According to the story itself...there was no way they could distinguish between right and wrong...until after they tasted of the fruit of the tree of that knowledge.

I understand what the writers of that creation story were trying to impart...but they screwed it up big time.

An essential ingredient of the story is that they did not know right from wrong before they ate the fruit of the tree.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 03:55 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
they did not know right from wrong before they ate the fruit of the tree.
Good vs.bad. Right vs. wrong. Do you not suppose that a loving and almighty God would have given each of his intelligent creatures a conscience? How do most of mankind innately understand it is wrong to murder? Conscience.
And why have so many convinced themselves that under certain conditions it is OK to murder? That's what's left of conscience once folks begin to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:07 pm
@neologist,
Neo...the story has the fact that they did not know right from wrong...good from evil...as an essential ingredient.

There is no getting around that.

Not sure what the writers of that particular story were thinking about...but they must have drunk lots of wine before starting the thinking.
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:37 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Did the true God set a sinister trap? Or, did he just screw things up? Maybe some other explanation?


I always thought of "Adam and Eve" as mythology. It's difficult to imagine one family populating the entire world. However, the Bible has to have a beginning and so we have Adam & Eve along with the serpent.

It's also difficult to imagine a God not setting them up as an experiment since He is supposed to be all knowing and Adam & Eve were like newborn babes, i.e., innocent. God said of all the creatures of the earth be fruitful and multiply. Once they ate of the Apple they Adam & Eve knew of their sexuality....

I maintain the Book of Genesis, I believe, is man's creative imagination at work.
mismi
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:40 pm
@neologist,
They did not know bad prior to choosing from the tree of good and evil. They only knew good. Their minds were pure. They knew what God told them. They were very capable of choosing wrong though. They could reason - Eve saw that the fruit was good...and that it was good for gaining wisdom. She was curious. Her discontent with what she had led her to do the one thing she had been told not to do. And then to encourage Adam to do the same thing. He also made a choice - whether his reasons were like hers or just to please her matters not - he chose to disobey. But still - they were not perfect. God said all he had created was good. I have never read where it said "perfect".
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:45 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Apparently I've been flying under your radar . . .
1] Either one's conscience makes moral decisions without deliberation.
OR
2] One must decide for oneself based on knowledge of good and bad.
#1 is automatic and gets you to the right conclusion each time.
While
#2 is anybody's guess. Zillions of choices.

But Adam and Eve were not robots, bound by necessity to door #1
He gave them the choice.

Say what you want Frank. If everybody had a perfect conscience, there would be no crime.
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:50 pm
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
they did not know right from wrong before they ate the fruit of the tree.
Good vs.bad. Right vs. wrong. Do you not suppose that a loving and almighty God would have given each of his intelligent creatures a conscience?
I might have supposed so, but according to the story he didn't.

neologist wrote:
How do most of mankind innately understand it is wrong to murder? Conscience.
According to the story, that came to mankind after eating from the tree of knowledge.

neologist wrote:
And why have so many convinced themselves that under certain conditions it is OK to murder?
For many it could be that they go by the example of the Bible.

neologist wrote:
That's what's left of conscience once folks begin to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad.
Once folks started to decide for themselves they came up with revolutionary ideas such as slavery was bad.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:50 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:
. . . I have never read where it said "perfect".
Chcek mu answer to saab here:
saab wrote:
The Bible says nothing about perfect.
neo wrote:
On the contrary: "The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice.. . ." (Deuteronomy 32:4) There are other places.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:56 pm
@neologist,
It was free will. Given all the tools to succeed but still screwed things up.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 04:58 pm
@mismi,
Quote:
They did not know bad prior to choosing from the tree of good and evil. They only knew good. Their minds were pure. They knew what God told them. They were very capable of choosing wrong though. They could reason - Eve saw that the fruit was good...and that it was good for gaining wisdom. She was curious. Her discontent with what she had led her to do the one thing she had been told not to do. And then to encourage Adam to do the same thing. He also made a choice - whether his reasons were like hers or just to please her matters not - he chose to disobey. But still - they were not perfect. God said all he had created was good. I have never read where it said "perfect".


There is no choice between right or wrong here. The story is about people who do not know any difference between right and wrong. As far as they were concerned, it was just as likely that the god would be pleased if they disobeyed as he would be if they obeyed.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 05:00 pm
@neologist,
If they did not know there was any difference between chose A or B....what difference would it make.

No, they were not bound by necessity to door 1...but the essence of the choice was NOTHING.

They did not know if obeying or disobeying would please the god.

For them...tossing a coin would be a moral and reasonable way to choose between A and B.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 05:01 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
It would be appropriate to read carefully the first 3 chapters of the Bible to get an understanding of exactly what Moses wrote. The fact that Genesis 2:4 combines the first 6 creative days into a single 'day' should help you understand that Genesis is not speaking of 24 hour days. Additionally, the fact that the seventh creative day is never recorded as having ended might give you an idea of how long each day might have been. Adam and Eve were created before the end of the sixth day. How long? Can't say. Certainly long enough for Adam to have named the animals. . .

So the were not babes.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 05:30 pm
@mesquite,
This is gonna take forever to formatt . .
neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
they did not know right from wrong before they ate the fruit of the tree.
Good vs.bad. Right vs. wrong. Do you not suppose that a loving and almighty God would have given each of his intelligent creatures a conscience?
mesquite wrote:
I might have supposed so, but according to the story he didn't.
So if they had not disobeyed God we would have war and crime and every sort of evil? . . Oh, wait!
neologist wrote:
How do most of mankind innately understand it is wrong to murder? Conscience.
mesquite wrote:
According to the story, that came to mankind after eating from the tree of knowledge.
Very interesting. How did this conscience you speak of work out?
neologist wrote:
And why have so many convinced themselves that under certain conditions it is OK to murder?
mesquite wrote:
For many it could be that they go by the example of the Bible.
Or, perhaps that is the result of ignorant humans trying to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad.
neologist wrote:
That's what's left of conscience once folks begin to decide for themselves what is good and what is bad.
mesquite wrote:
Once folks started to decide for themselves they came up with revolutionary ideas such as slavery was bad.
Perhaps the perfect conscience would have prevented slavery before its root.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 05:33 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
There is no choice between right or wrong here. The story is about people who do not know any difference between right and wrong. As far as they were concerned, it was just as likely that the god would be pleased if they disobeyed as he would be if they obeyed.
'Frank Apisa wrote:
They did not know if obeying or disobeying would please the god.

For them...tossing a coin would be a moral and reasonable way to choose between A and B.
Brilliant, Frank. They were told they would die if they even touched the fruit.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 05:54 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
Brilliant, Frank. They were told they would die if they even touched the fruit.


Jesus, Neo...does that explained???

They did not know that dying was bad!

Anyway...the god told them they would die that very day.

The serpent (possibly Satan) told them they wouldn't...and that if they ate it, they would know good from evil...and be like gods.

They ate the fruit...and they did not die that day . The did from that point forward know good from evil...and even the god noticed that they had become like gods.

The god lied or was mistaken. The serpent told the truth...and was correct.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 06:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
This could get tedious
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Brilliant, Frank. They were told they would die if they even touched the fruit.

Jesus, Neo...does that explained???
They did not know that dying was bad!
You assume that they had not been around long enough to observe death. Quite a stretch, Frank.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Anyway...the god told them they would die that very day.
Don't know haw many times the very same bible you love to quote also says a thousand years to God is as a day. Also, that I just pointed out the 7th day has not yet ended.
Frank Apisa wrote:
The serpent (possibly Satan) told them they wouldn't...and that if they ate it, they would know good from evil...and be like gods.
They ate the fruit...and they did not die that day . The did from that point forward know good from evil...and even the god noticed that they had become like gods.The god lied or was mistaken. The serpent told the truth...and was correct.
This must be very difficult for you Frank. Why don't you just say the whole thing is an allegory and you don't believe it?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 06:21 pm
@neologist,
Quote:
You assume that they had not been around long enough to observe death. Quite a stretch, Frank.


Why is that a stretch? Everything happens at breakneck speed in Genesis. And even if they had observed death...why would they assume it to be bad as opposed to good? They did not know the difference between the two.

Quote:
Don't know haw many times the very same bible you love to quote also says a thousand years to God is as a day. Also, that I just pointed out the 7th day has not yet ended.


I see. Well...why not quote as many times as you can where it does say that. No insult intended, but I really prefer not to take your word on it.

And if it meant that they would not die for thousands of years...wouldn't it have been a rather empty threat?

Quote:
This must be very difficult for you Frank.


No...not difficult at all. I've written about this dozens of times here and in other forums. It is easy.

Quote:
Why don't you just say the whole thing is an allegory and you don't believe it?


Okay...best guess I can make is that it is an allegory...and a rather poorly conceived one at that. I do not consider it to be anything more than a rather poorly conceived allegory.

Right along, Neo, I have been talking about the defects in the construct.

So with that out of the way, now what?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 06:54 pm
It was a minor infraction. They did not murder somebody for their tennis shoes. All of humanity gets punished for something that calls for perhaps a slight bit of discipline.
mismi
  Selected Answer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 07:25 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
As far as they were concerned, it was just as likely that the god would be pleased if they disobeyed as he would be if they obeyed.


They understood. God told them not to eat of that tree BEFORE they inhabited the garden. They had perfect communion with God in the garden. Maybe like children they did not understand what "you will surely die" fully means but that is just a guess - but they knew it was wrong to eat of that tree. After they ate of the tree - they understood what God meant when he said they would surely die if they ate of it. They hid from God because of what they had done. They were ashamed of their nakedness. There was harmony and peace before they disobeyed and shame and guilt afterwards. Sure - it was how God made them. But he did make them. And he did give them a choice.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Mar, 2013 07:55 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
It was a minor infraction. They did not murder somebody for their tennis shoes. All of humanity gets punished for something that calls for perhaps a slight bit of discipline.
So, obviously there must have been more to it.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 11/24/2020 at 08:30:47