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If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

Forums: Religion, Bible, Dueling Believers, Creationism, Adam And Eve
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 04:29 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

mismi wrote:
Quote:
As far as they were concerned, it was just as likely that the god would be pleased if they disobeyed as he would be if they obeyed.


They understood. God told them not to eat of that tree BEFORE they inhabited the garden. They had perfect communion with God in the garden. Maybe like children they did not understand what "you will surely die" fully means but that is just a guess - but they knew it was wrong to eat of that tree. After they ate of the tree - they understood what God meant when he said they would surely die if they ate of it. They hid from God because of what they had done. They were ashamed of their nakedness. There was harmony and peace before they disobeyed and shame and guilt afterwards. Sure - it was how God made them. But he did make them. And he did give them a choice.
Succinctly put. Wonder why it is so difficult for some to grasp?


Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that THE STORY is about a couple who did not know the difference between right and wrong?

Could it be that you are terrified that your god will punish you if you dare to question something like that?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 04:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
The Gnostic interpretation is that the Demiurge was lying when he said they'd die, they ate the apple and didn't die, so Sophia was right.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 04:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that THE STORY is about a couple who did not know the difference between right and wrong?

Could it be that you are terrified that your god will punish you if you dare to question something like that?

That's unmistakably the meaning is it Frank? Not a guess on your part? Personally I'd guess it had another meaning.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 04:52 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The Gnostic interpretation is that the Demiurge was lying when he said they'd die, they ate the apple and didn't die, so Sophia was right.


Not sure about that...but...

...in THE STORY...

...one character was a set-up artist creating a scenario almost guaranteed to result the way the story results...and one character is just treating the whole thing as a huge joke.

Why anyone would choose the former as the object of "love and adoration" is completely beyond me.

If the former is the object of "abject terror"...then it makes sense.

For me...well, I'd sooner accept a dinner invitation from Hannibal Lecter than from that former character.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 04:54 am
@igm,
igm wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that THE STORY is about a couple who did not know the difference between right and wrong?

Could it be that you are terrified that your god will punish you if you dare to question something like that?

That's unmistakably the meaning is it Frank? Not a guess on your part? Personally I'd guess it had another meaning.


Read the story. It is what it is. Then...if the story scares the hell out of you..."guess" another way. Maybe the monster will buy your "guess."
igm
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
Sorry Frank.. you've lost me!? Never mind... it's not a subject that I have much interest in anyway... I just can't see why you're so certain it can only be interpreted in one way.. perhaps you're just joking...
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:10 am
@Frank Apisa,
The Gnostic interpretation is that the character that set everything up was the Demiurge, a creature accidently created by Sophia the mother.

The Demiurge is lower than man so it tries to deny knowledge to man, because with knowledge they achieve Gnosis and escape the Demiurge.

Your comparison of the Demiurge with Hannibal Lector is fairly accurate.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:14 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

The Gnostic interpretation is that the character that set everything up was the Demiurge, a creature accidently created by Sophia the mother.

The Demiurge is lower than man so it tries to deny knowledge to man, because with knowledge they achieve Gnosis and escape the Demiurge.

Your comparison of the Demiurge with Hannibal Lector is fairly accurate.

That sounds much more interesting Smile
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:19 am
@igm,
I don't know if you can get this where you are, but the whole Adam and Eve thing and Gnosticism in general was discussed on Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time, broadcast on BBC Radio 4 last Thursday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:23 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

I don't know if you can get this where you are, but the whole Adam and Eve thing and Gnosticism in general was discussed on Melvyn Bragg's In Our Time, broadcast on BBC Radio 4 last Thursday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz

Thanks! I know all his prog's are archived... he's a favorite listen of mine... I'll have a listen on iPlayer... thanks again!
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 05:24 am
@igm,
I tend to listen when I'm driving.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 08:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that THE STORY is about a couple who did not know the difference between right and wrong?

Could it be that you are terrified that your god will punish you if you dare to question something like that?
What punishment Frank? They were told they would die. We all die. That is the ultimate consequence of our situation whether we serve God or not.

The only alternate hope we have is that God did not abandon his purpose simply because Adam and Eve sinned. Genesis 3:15 seems to say that. Good enough for a start.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 08:27 am
@izzythepush,
I had a demiurge to drink beer last night. Is that the same? I had 2 IPAs. They were good.

Oh, and I had them with gnocchi
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 08:29 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp that THE STORY is about a couple who did not know the difference between right and wrong?

Could it be that you are terrified that your god will punish you if you dare to question something like that?
What punishment Frank? They were told they would die. We all die. That is the ultimate consequence of our situation whether we serve God or not.


C'mon, Neo. You gotta do better than that. Now you are denying that the god punished them for falling for the sting???

What about all that "bearing children in pain" ****? And the other stuff. Try reading Genesis Chapter 3 verses 15 forward. Then come back and tell us if your question made any sense.

Quote:
The only alternate hope we have is that God did not abandon his purpose simply because Adam and Eve sinned. Genesis 3:15 seems to say that. Good enough for a start.


Did you read an English version of Chapter 3...or was it Greek to you?

C'mon!
neologist
 
  0  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 08:35 am
@Frank Apisa,
The point I was making, Frank, is that there is no additional punishment for not serving God than what we already bear. No baking, no boiling, no frying, no broiling. Hitler died, Mother Teresa died. You and I ain't dead, yet.

All the same.

What punishment Frank? What punishment have I to fear?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 08:48 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The Gnostic interpretation is that the Demiurge was lying when he said they'd die, they ate the apple and didn't die, so Sophia was right.
Adam and Eve didn't die?
Wow! Where are they?
I'd like to meet them.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 09:00 am
@neologist,
How is what I've posted any more ridiculous than what you actually believe?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 09:03 am
@neologist,
neologist wrote:
Adam and Eve didn't die?
Wow! Where are they?
I'd like to meet them.


Jesus didn't die?
Wow! Where is he?
I'd like to meet him.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 09:04 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
How is what I've posted any more ridiculous than what you actually believe?
I don't just believe I had 2 IPAs last night. I have the empties to prove it.
Is that what you meant?

Its the part about the gnocchi you think is ridiculous, right. OK, I just added that to poke ya.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 May, 2013 09:06 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
neologist wrote:
Adam and Eve didn't die?
Wow! Where are they?
I'd like to meet them.


Jesus didn't die?
Wow! Where is he?
I'd like to meet him.
He's in heaven. You'd have to die to get there.
Bummer, eh?
 

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