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If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 07:29 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5291047)
Frank, You are running with the assumption that they did not know that they were not supposed to do what they were told not to do. I struggle to find cause to agree.


Stop struggling, Smiley...it is clearly written that they did not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.

Quote:
Your essential element ignores the idea that they were told what was wrong when they needed to know it. At this point they were given just ONE wrong. ONE thing they could not do. he gave them EVERY other tree, just one of them belonged to god. This is mine, do not touch it. It was simple.


As far as the story is concerned, they were not told it was wrong...and the idea of what "wrong" meant was not even explained to them. In fact, the god demanded that they not obtain that information.

It is a pathetic story...and if you were to look at it open-mindedly, you would see that it is.

And the idea of a god--who can make a universe so large that light takes billions of years to traverse it--had to put a forbidden tree right in the middle of a garden inhabited by naive waifs who had no idea of what was right and wrong...and then command them not to touch it...is unimaginably cruel.

It would be like putting a couple of young kid into a room with dozens of boxes...all of which they could open except one nicely decorated box smack dab in the middle of the room.

It is a pathetic myth...and poorly told.

Not sure why you are so reluctant to acknowledge that.


Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 08:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
Are you suggesting that though they were told not to do something, and told it would result in death if they did, they were yet still uninformed?

Furthermore, allow me to look at it from a perspective a little closer to your own

forget right and wrong for a minute, as they are relative. By what do you define right and wrong? If you are informed of the consequences of your actions before you take them, does it matter if it is right or wrong?

Ignore religion for illustrational purposes. Lets look at per sé the rules of the road. If you park on a double yellow line, you will be fined £50-100. You are not told it is wrong to park on these lines, you are told not to and told the consequences of your parking there.

You are right, God did not say "it is wrong to eat of the tree" but he did say

“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.17But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

so Adam and Eve were informed that the action they took would have consequence.

You may still believe that they were uninformed, I however do not believe it unreasonable to believe Adam and Eve to be semi intelligent beings that knew they should not do what they were told not to do.
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 09:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
...it is clearly written that they did not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.


Just for the record. that is not what the scriptures say. the only reference to not knowing was made by the serpent, while manipulating Eve.
Quote:
YOUR​ eyes are bound to be opened and ​YOU​ are bound to be like God, ​KNOWING​ good and bad.”

although I have been wrong before
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 09:48 am
@neologist,
Hi Neo, how's life? Since your god is all things. your god is sin.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 10:54 am
@Chumly,
C'mon Chumly, he created you and I think you're ok

BTW, I'll be working a gun show in Lynden in a few weeks. You should check out the knives and camping stuff
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 10:59 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5291119)
Are you suggesting that though they were told not to do something, and told it would result in death if they did, they were yet still uninformed?


I'm not telling you that...the God of the Bible is telling you that. Read the book...and you will see. Neither Adam nor Eve had any idea of what right and wrong were.

Quote:
forget right and wrong for a minute, as they are relative. By what do you define right and wrong? If you are informed of the consequences of your actions before you take them, does it matter if it is right or wrong?

Ignore religion for illustrational purposes. Lets look at per sé the rules of the road. If you park on a double yellow line, you will be fined £50-100. You are not told it is wrong to park on these lines, you are told not to and told the consequences of your parking there.

You are right, God did not say "it is wrong to eat of the tree" but he did say

“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.17But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

so Adam and Eve were informed that the action they took would have consequence.

You may still believe that they were uninformed, I however do not believe it unreasonable to believe Adam and Eve to be semi intelligent beings that knew they should not do what they were told not to do.


Rationalize it whatever way makes you feel safest, Smiley. The book says what it says.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 11:02 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5291119)
Quote:
...it is clearly written that they did not know the difference between right and wrong...between good and evil.


Just for the record. that is not what the scriptures say. the only reference to not knowing was made by the serpent, while manipulating Eve.


The book clearly indicates that the god did not want them to eat of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Stop trying to manipulate it. Your god may condemn you to hell if you do.


Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
YOUR​ eyes are bound to be opened and ​YOU​ are bound to be like God, ​KNOWING​ good and bad.”

although I have been wrong before


Yup...me too.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 12:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank it has been fun my friend, I wish you a fine afternoon good sir Smile
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 12:22 pm
@Smileyrius,
Happy Easter, Smiley. Happy Easter to all.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 02:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Neither Adam nor Eve had any idea of what right and wrong were.
I had forgotten about posting this thread,
http://able2know.org/topic/60978-1

But one thing I've noticed, Frank, is that you are steadfast in declaring that Adam and Eve had no idea of good and bad. This is extremely hard for me to understand for it necessitates the question: What would have happened if they had never been tempted? Would they have been depraved savages?

Assuming some internal harmony for the book of Genesis, God created birds with a built in ability to navigate long distances between nesting sites. So far as we know, this ability is inborn and not the result of instruction in the points of the compass, magnetic, vs. true north, mean declination, and so forth. Animals were created with the innate ability to care for their young. Certain hibernating animals know instinctively to stuff themselves with food before the hibernating season. There are many other examples of ingrained behavior varying from specie to specie.

Why is it so difficult to grasp the idea that God's crowning creation, the one which he declared would be above the animals and 'in his image', would not possess an ingrained sense of moral behavior; a conscience? True, simply having ingrained standards would make man a puppet, unable to choose any other course. What, after all, is free will, without choice?

That was the fruit, Frank. Their decision to accept God's standards or to decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong. So how did that work out? Not so many years after making their decision, some of their descendants made the choice that burning their children alive was a good and acceptable offering to their gods.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 03:20 pm
@neologist,
Neo, stay away from defending the indefensible. You don't do a good job of it and only make things worse.

The story (no matter whether we take the one told in the Bible or the one you've just invented to justify this faulty allegory) ends up with two people disobeying a single command of the god. That is it...one command...and one act of disobedience.

The punishment for this horrendous crime is:

Genesis: 3;
16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

At Genesis 3:22, the god says:


22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side[a] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

That, by the way, pretty much establishes that the god, as opposed to you, Neo, thought "the man" did not know good and evil" before the transgression.

All of the punishment, according to Christian tradition, is also visited upon every human born since...and still to be born...until the end of time.

Hell of a reaction.

The god belongs in a padded cell.

Imagine a human father having a child disobey...and going so apeshit he hacks the kid to death with an ax...and axes all the other kids on the block also.

Anyway, Neo...have a Happy Easter.



neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 03:36 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I admire your tenacity, Frank, even in the face of incontrovertible arguments. Obviously you disagree with my signature line.

Do you aver that giving the knowledge of good and bad was a positive thing? Or would it have been better for them to have stayed ignorant.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 07:24 pm
@neologist,
Let's be Frank, do you have evidence to support your contentions (and the like) as to:

"...he created you" (sic)
"...and I think you're ok" (sic)
"...I'll be working a gun show in Lynden in a few weeks." (sic)
"You should check out the knives and camping stuff" (sic)

Well, I have to go brush my teeth and practice guitar, although what one has to do with another is as incongruous as your superstitious beliefs.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Mar, 2013 09:56 pm
@Chumly,
Why bring Frank into this?
And why all this sic stuff?
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Apr, 2013 11:17 am
@neologist,
Apparently he's sic of the discussion.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Apr, 2013 11:20 am
@Ragman,

Quote:
Apparently he's sic of the discussion.


I'm not.

And although Neo and I disagree strongly on this, I just want to go on record with a "thank you" to Neo and the others for discussing it in such detail.

MY GUESS: We are never going to agree.

So be it, or AMEN, if you prefer.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Apr, 2013 11:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
For what its worth, Frank. Steel sharpens steel. You are a worthy steel.

Though wrong, of course.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Apr, 2013 11:47 am
@Frank Apisa,
Humor-Russ
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 06:41 pm
@mismi,
mismi wrote:
Quote:
As far as they were concerned, it was just as likely that the god would be pleased if they disobeyed as he would be if they obeyed.


They understood. God told them not to eat of that tree BEFORE they inhabited the garden. They had perfect communion with God in the garden. Maybe like children they did not understand what "you will surely die" fully means but that is just a guess - but they knew it was wrong to eat of that tree. After they ate of the tree - they understood what God meant when he said they would surely die if they ate of it. They hid from God because of what they had done. They were ashamed of their nakedness. There was harmony and peace before they disobeyed and shame and guilt afterwards. Sure - it was how God made them. But he did make them. And he did give them a choice.
Succinctly put. Wonder why it is so difficult for some to grasp?
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 May, 2013 08:58 pm
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:
Are you suggesting that though they were told not to do something, and told it would result in death if they did, they were yet still uninformed?

Furthermore, allow me to look at it from a perspective a little closer to your own

forget right and wrong for a minute, as they are relative. By what do you define right and wrong? If you are informed of the consequences of your actions before you take them, does it matter if it is right or wrong?

Ignore religion for illustrational purposes. Lets look at per sé the rules of the road. If you park on a double yellow line, you will be fined £50-100. You are not told it is wrong to park on these lines, you are told not to and told the consequences of your parking there.

You are right, God did not say "it is wrong to eat of the tree" but he did say

“From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction.17But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

so Adam and Eve were informed that the action they took would have consequence.

You may still believe that they were uninformed, I however do not believe it unreasonable to believe Adam and Eve to be semi intelligent beings that knew they should not do what they were told not to do.
What you said
0 Replies
 
 

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