If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

neologist wrote:

Moses wrote:
The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)
If this is true, how can we explain war and crime and sickness and death? Is it all a part of a perfect God's plan?

I have another question: why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden of Eden? He already had knowledge so He wouldn't need to eat the fruit. What reason was there for planting it there besides tempting Adam to eat of it?

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Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

yitwail wrote:

neologist wrote:
Moses wrote:
The Rock, perfect is his activity,
For all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;
Righteous and upright is he. (Deuteronomy 32:4)
If this is true, how can we explain war and crime and sickness and death? Is it all a part of a perfect God's plan?

I have another question: why did God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden of Eden? He already had knowledge so He wouldn't need to eat the fruit. What reason was there for planting it there besides tempting Adam to eat of it?

Good point: I've included Frank Apisa's post from another thread:

Frank Apisa wrote:

What good is a "conscience" to a person who has intentionally be deprived of the knowledge of what is right...what is wrong...what is good...and what is evil?

What good is a "conscience" to someone who does not know that there is anything wrong or evil about which to have a conscience?

Are you being obtuse because you see that your position on this issue is absurd and indefensible...or because you truly do not see that one cannot be logically said to possess a "conscience" if that person has been deprived of the knowledge of what is right and wrong...good and evil?

And...

...one cannot logically assert that a person purposefully deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...right and wrong....

...can exercise any "free will" he/she supposedly has in any matter than is going to be later judged to be right, wrong, good, or evil.

Face up to that, Neo.

The perfect conscience is innate. God, having created Adam and Eve, programmed them with an aversion to sin. Adam did not have to wonder if it was OK to steal or commit adultery; He was incapable of it. If this was all there was to it, Adam and Eve would have been perfect robots and we would all be alive today living happy lives in the smiley farm and life would be beautiful all day long.

No free will - Everything perfect - So what?

So God gave them the choice of whether or not they would continue with His arrangement. He warned them the consequence would be death; but they disobeyed anyway.

You think an omniscient God would, of necessity, know how such a choice would turn out? Do you believe that God must necessarily have known that Satan would pick that time to incite the rebellion? Then you don't understand what a gift we have in our free will.

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would have no need for the bible. The entire history of man is a consequence of that rebellion and the bible, woven into that history, clearly tells what God has done and intends to do so that his purpose for the earth will become.

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No. If Adam and Eve were perfect, and they still lived today, none of us would be here. This planet can hold only just so many animal life; it's called logistics/limits.

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God knew man would sin. Otherwise, he would have built a much larger earth. LOL

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They were told to 'fill the earth'. Now if you were a waiter and your customer told you to fill his cup of coffee, would you continue pouring until the floor was soaked?

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Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

neologist wrote:

You think an omniscient God would, of necessity, know how such a choice would turn out? Do you believe that God must necessarily have known that Satan would pick that time to incite the rebellion? Then you don't understand what a gift we have in our free will.

i'm probably making you rehash old arguments, but it may be of benefit to many to gather them in one place, so i have a follow-up question for you. after Jesus said in the Last Supper, "one of you will betray me," did Judas have a choice not to do so? likewise, once Jesus tells Peter, "you yourself will disown me three times," did Peter have any choice in the matter?

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Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

yitwail wrote:

neologist wrote:
You think an omniscient God would, of necessity, know how such a choice would turn out? Do you believe that God must necessarily have known that Satan would pick that time to incite the rebellion? Then you don't understand what a gift we have in our free will.

i'm probably making you rehash old arguments, but it may be of benefit to many to gather them in one place, so i have a follow-up question for you. after Jesus said in the Last Supper, "one of you will betray me," did Judas have a choice not to do so? likewise, once Jesus tells Peter, "you yourself will disown me three times," did Peter have any choice in the matter?

Excellent point. That God is able to know the future does not mean He permits himself to know it all, nor does it mean He has predestined the future. He has no more obligation to do so than you or I have to read the last page of the whodunit.

I do not believe that, to God, time is linear.

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Is god omniscient, neo?

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InfraBlue wrote:

Is god omniscient, neo?

Do you mean:

Is God able to know everything including the future?

or

Is God bound to know how each of us will respond to His gift of free will?

Important distinction

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an important--at least historically, if not theologically--corollary to this discussion is the Calvinist notion of predestination.

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neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Is god omniscient, neo?
Do you mean:

Is God able to know everything including the future?

or

Is God bound to know how each of us will respond to His gift of free will?

Important distinction

Try: possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

0 Replies

Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

neologist wrote:

Good point: I've included Frank Apisa's post from another thread:

Frank Apisa wrote:
What good is a "conscience" to a person who has intentionally be deprived of the knowledge of what is right...what is wrong...what is good...and what is evil?

What good is a "conscience" to someone who does not know that there is anything wrong or evil about which to have a conscience?

Are you being obtuse because you see that your position on this issue is absurd and indefensible...or because you truly do not see that one cannot be logically said to possess a "conscience" if that person has been deprived of the knowledge of what is right and wrong...good and evil?

And...

...one cannot logically assert that a person purposefully deprived of the knowledge of good and evil...right and wrong....

...can exercise any "free will" he/she supposedly has in any matter than is going to be later judged to be right, wrong, good, or evil.

Face up to that, Neo.

The perfect conscience is innate.

From where does that piece of information derive, Neo?

Quote:

God, having created Adam and Eve, programmed them with an aversion to sin.

How do you know that, Neo?

Quote:

Adam did not have to wonder if it was OK to steal or commit adultery; He was incapable of it.

How do you know that, Neo?

Quote:

If this was all there was to it, Adam and Eve would have been perfect robots and we would all be alive today living happy lives in the smiley farm and life would be beautiful all day long.

No free will - Everything perfect - So what?

So God gave them the choice of whether or not they would continue with His arrangement. He warned them the consequence would be death; but they disobeyed anyway.

But the god purposefully withheld from Adam and Eve...the essential element in making this "choice"...the knowledge of good and evil...right and wrong.

The Bible tells us they did not know the difference between those things.

Even the god acknowledges that they did not know the difference between right and wrong...good and evil...UNTIL AFTER THEY ATE OF THE TREE OF THAT KNOWLEDGE. In other words, Neo...the did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying until after they disobeyed.

Quote:

You think an omniscient God would, of necessity, know how such a choice would turn out? Do you believe that God must necessarily have known that Satan would pick that time to incite the rebellion? Then you don't understand what a gift we have in our free will.

One does not have to take a postion on any of these things...although I would answer them differently from the way you seem to assume they ought to be answered.

The bottom line is that they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Quote:

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would have no need for the bible. The entire history of man is a consequence of that rebellion and the bible, woven into that history, clearly tells what God has done and intends to do so that his purpose for the earth will become.

Your god tells you that they did not know they were doing anything wrong!

If your god considered this a "sin"...which of course, means that it was something that offended the god...

...then there was something wrong with the god...not with the humans.

The best possible guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a history, of sorts, of the early Hebrew people...and that it contains a mythology...a fairytale, if you will, about REALITY.

The fairytale is defective in many ways...but the defect in this early part of the fairytale is especially defective.

If there is a lesson that can be obtained from the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden...it is that one should not trust the god in the story.

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neologist wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
Is god omniscient, neo?
Do you mean:

Is God able to know everything including the future?

or

Is God bound to know how each of us will respond to His gift of free will?

Important distinction

I believe the question disqualifies the distinction. Or if you insist, the answer to your question would be "Yes".

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God likes to see how we creatures react to certain things and so we were goven free will which makes us do things as we see fit even when we know that it is wrong which is to say, even when we know deep inside that it is a sin. So yes, God created us perfectly but because of that we get the option of to sin or not to sin.

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InfraBlue wrote:

neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Is god omniscient, neo?
Do you mean:

Is God able to know everything including the future?

or

Is God bound to know how each of us will respond to His gift of free will?

Important distinction

Try: possessed of universal or complete knowledge.

I can't answer without making an exception for free will.

We are told that God numbers the hairs on our head. I've often wondered about that. For example, I've got $25 in my wallet right now, but I put that realization aside in order to compose this post. Do you suppose there are certain things God must know or be aware of that He simply puts aside in some corresponding way?

And, what about knowledge of the future? There are prophecies in the bible which we, as believers, expect to be fulfilled. At the same time, we are told we can choose our course of action.

I can understand one's belief that none of this can be true; but if it is true, than God must withhold from Himself the knowledge of some future events in the same way as I can't tell you whether I have 2 tens and one five or 1 ten and 3 fives.

Perhaps the stream of time is to God like our favorite trout stream. We don't always have to go in the direction of the water. If we want, we can even change its course.

Unless, of course, we don't have free will.

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Questioner wrote:

neologist wrote:
InfraBlue wrote:
Is god omniscient, neo?
Do you mean:

Is God able to know everything including the future?

or

Is God bound to know how each of us will respond to His gift of free will?

Important distinction

I believe the question disqualifies the distinction. Or if you insist, the answer to your question would be "Yes".

OK; God is able to know everything, including the future.

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From the evolution thread:

rosborne979 wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
So...they were told not to do it. BUT THEY DIDN'T KNOW THAT DISOBEDIENCE WAS WRONG. . . But the god...denied them the knowledge that there was anything wrong with disobeying.
Uh; what part of 'you will die if you do that' do you think they didn't understand?

It may be easy for you to understand the consequences of disobeying an order, but for someone who doesn't know good from evil, right from wrong, it's arguably impossible for them to know not do do something.

But all of this pretty much ignores the fact that any adult who doesn't even understand the concept of right and wrong, would probably be considered cognitively impared (sic) anyway. So Adam and Eve were essentially, brain damaged until they ate that apple.

How about a knowledge of cause and effect?

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Re: If we were created perfect, why do we sin?
Neo wrote:

Quote:

The perfect conscience is innate.

From where does that piece of information derive, Neo?

Quote:

God, having created Adam and Eve, programmed them with an aversion to sin.

How do you know that, Neo?

Quote:

Adam did not have to wonder if it was OK to steal or commit adultery; He was incapable of it.

How do you know that, Neo?

Quote:

If this was all there was to it, Adam and Eve would have been perfect robots and we would all be alive today living happy lives in the smiley farm and life would be beautiful all day long.

No free will - Everything perfect - So what?

So God gave them the choice of whether or not they would continue with His arrangement. He warned them the consequence would be death; but they disobeyed anyway.

But the god purposefully withheld from Adam and Eve...the essential element in making this "choice"...the knowledge of good and evil...right and wrong.

The Bible tells us they did not know the difference between those things.

Even the god acknowledges that they did not know the difference between right and wrong...good and evil...UNTIL AFTER THEY ATE OF THE TREE OF THAT KNOWLEDGE. In other words, Neo...the did not know there was anything wrong with disobeying until after they disobeyed.

Quote:

You think an omniscient God would, of necessity, know how such a choice would turn out? Do you believe that God must necessarily have known that Satan would pick that time to incite the rebellion? Then you don't understand what a gift we have in our free will.

One does not have to take a postion on any of these things...although I would answer them differently from the way you seem to assume they ought to be answered.

The bottom line is that they did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Quote:

If Adam and Eve had not sinned, we would have no need for the bible. The entire history of man is a consequence of that rebellion and the bible, woven into that history, clearly tells what God has done and intends to do so that his purpose for the earth will become.

Your god tells you that they did not know they were doing anything wrong!

If your god considered this a "sin"...which of course, means that it was something that offended the god...

...then there was something wrong with the god...not with the humans.

The best possible guess that can be made about the Bible is that it is a history, of sorts, of the early Hebrew people...and that it contains a mythology...a fairytale, if you will, about REALITY.

The fairytale is defective in many ways...but the defect in this early part of the fairytale is especially defective.

If there is a lesson that can be obtained from the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden...it is that one should not trust the god in the story.[/quote]

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You're having a hard time dealing with the paradox of omniscience and free will, neo. Some of the arguments that you attempt to brush-off as straw men are based on that very paradox. It's like saying your own difficulty in dealing with this paradox is itself a straw man argument.

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If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

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