If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

Rejecting an evidence without looking into it is sign of arrogance and insanity. You can at least search for why Muslims say Quran is a miracle. Is it really preserved and what evidence is there? Does this agree with any proven scientific facts or does Quran goes against established scientific facts. But do your research with out any pre-conceived notions, if you already have made up your mind not to accept a religion then we are wasting our time.

Why don't you tell us why you believe it's a miracle? Saying it is and telling people to google why isn't going to convince anyone.

Is it because the prophet was illiterate yet produced it? Or is it due to the peculiar nature of Arabic?

I have heard it claimed that Arabic is as importantly visually as audibly, that the Koran is perfect and changing one word would throw everything out of kilter. I have also heard it claimed that if anyone doubts the divinity of the Koran they should try to create something as perfect, and so far nobody has.

Is that what you meant?

I have posted something on this topic on an Islamic forum, see link below to read:

https://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134353814-living-miracle-quran-proof-islam-true-religion.html#post3016354

I don't like clicking on links to unknown websites. Sorry. I need to know you better before I'm willing to do that.

That's understandable. You can type in Islamicboard.com to see if that is a legit website. May be join this forum as well to interact with Muslims online.

I do most of my interacting with Muslims when I get my hair cut. I go regularly, and we talk about everything from Ramadan in the Arctic Circle to how Saints did at the weekend and everything in between.

That's good and I am sure you will have a good experience.

Hi Habib,

Thank you for the thoughtful replies.

In relation to my curiousity regarding Islam - it started after 9-11, where it appeared to me that religion wouldn't explain such hate (if islamists carried out the attacks), so I sought out reasons for it. The funny thing is, the only places to obtain that sort of information is from people who could be accused of hating the U.S.. Official histories omits a lot of information, or puts a slant on it that is purely from the U.S. view.

Then came a drastic increase in Islamist terrorism, with many of the offenders yelling allahu akbar. Here a similar issue is present to the U.S. question - the official versions don't deal with the more difficult questions. The only sites I found (when doing generic searches on why certain patterns arose) were ones that could be described as hate sites. Luckily there is Quran.com and noblequran.com so any verses could be viewed from a legitimate source - and I did find plenty of discrepancies.

Reading some of those is what lead to me reading several chapters of the Quran, and other 'source' material such as Mohammed's life (from both supporters and critics). Here too I found differences in how things are described.

---------------

That intro is to say that having read most of the link - I am aware of the dual nature of many parts of the Quran, and I am disappointed that it the link only provides the supportive explanations (which are good explanations) and does not deal with the more problematic verses in the Quran, that if not explained, could not help but affect a number of believers attitudes - particularly the many verses that (and as a note, I have read these from Quran.com, or Noblequran.com):
- call Christians & Jews liars, pigs, dogs, cattle, monkeys, the worst of beasts, corrupt, followers of satan etc. (how could this not create problems)
- not to work for non-muslims or take orders from them (if I read this right, which creates problems with integration / understanding of other faiths)
- that say not to believe a non-muslim above a muslim (how could this not affect justice)
- that muslims are winners and all others are losers (how could such an idea not create problems towards others)

In other words, I haven't yet been able to find a Islamic site explaining the existence of such verses.Perhaps you know of one?

Adam and Eve were created with a free will. There were only three people on the earth that were perfect: Adam, Eve, and Jesus Christ. All three had a God given free will to choose whether to be obedient to God or not be obedient. Perfect ppl can sin too. It's all about doing the right thing based on one's love for God. Jesus could have sinned and caved in to the great pressure heaped upon him by the wicked religious leaders of his time, but he chose to do his heavenly Father's will rather than follow the line of least resistance.

Thanks for the background. I know after 9/11 many people have looked into Islam and statistics show that many have accepted Islam as well. As a Muslim I believe that nothing happens without the will of Allah and when 9/11 happened, I knew this will open a door for those who never showed any interest in Islam to look at the teachings of Islam.


Still there are those who read Quran and their hate for Muslims increased. Quran itself says that guidance comes only from God and He guides only those who are sincere and ask Him to show them the right path. Allah knows what we dont know and He knows what is in our hearts. Allah also says that same Quran who may guide many to truth, would also lead many go astray because they never asked Allah for help and they never were truly looking for any answers.

Anyways your questions are very natural and you could have find answer to these question within the Quran have you read it cover to cover with sincere intention to find answer to these questions. I will try to answer each of your question of the best of my knowledge and Allah knows best.




Do you know that in Islam Muslim men are allowed to marry people of book, that is, Christian women and Jewish women? Quran teaches to respect people of book. Quran tell us to invite people of book to right path with wisdom.

There are also stories where Quran has specifically said that there were some Jews and Christians who have corrupted the book given to them just to get worldly benefits and these are the people who spread corrption in the land. Quran also mention that a group of Jews did not follow Sabath and were turned into Apes. These are stories for Muslims to take lesson from. They are taught through these stories that it is best for human beings (Muslims, Jews, Christian or anyone) to obey Allah but He is our creator and He knows what is best for us. If we disobey Allah then there is no difference between a human being and an animal. Mean when human beings dont use their intellect and start behaving like animals then they have earned nothing but punishment of Allah.

In summary it is up to a person how he/she interpret these verses and stories. Those who want to spread hate will copy paste these verse to propagate their agenda and those who know that Allah has not just revealed a book of history to us but something which is guidance for us until the Day of Judgement look deeper and Allah guides them with true understanding of these verse. Remember I said that guidance only comes from Allah.



I ahve no idea what is the basis of this belief. Did you read any clear verse in Quran on this?

There are many Muslims who work in Europe, Australia, America and they take orders from non-Muslims. I dont see any logic behind this belief.

Muslims can be friend with non-Muslims but not to an extent that they start compromising their religion. This is why close friendship with good Muslims is preferred because you are what your friends are. If my friends are all Christians who eat pigs and drink alcohol then it will be very hard for a practicing Muslim to follow Islam. Chance is that this Muslim may slowly leave Islam or become so modernized that stop practicing Islam altogether. It is common in many Western countries. Muslims drink, eat anything they like, date with girls and get into pre-marriage sex etc. All of this is un-Islamic and therefore it is preferred for Muslims to have good Muslims friends so that they can remind each other when one gets off track. Hope this makes sense.



I have given a link in my privious post on rights of non-Muslims. There is no such thing is Islam. Islamic history is full of these examples and these were discussed in the link I sent in my last post. I am giving the same link again:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/374/viewall/rights-of-non-muslims-in-islam/

Here is another link on similar issues and it has references from Quran and Hadith.

https://www.the-faith.com/featured-posts/the-rights-of-non-muslims-in-islam/




If you mean in this world then you already know the answer. This world is a test and Allah tests someone by giving more and tests others by taking away. The condition keep changing. Muslim may be under a non-Muslim government and they may be a ruler one day. Success in this world means nothing because it is a test. For a true Muslim, real success is in the life hereafter. This is what Quran teaches.

If we talk about the Hereafter that Quran says that Allah has choosen religion of Islam for all mankind and this is the only way to success. Islam means submission to God and it is not a new religion. It was religion of Adam PBUH, Noah PBUH, Ibrahim PBUH, Moses PBUH, Jesus PBUH and all other prophets because they all taught to submit to Allah alone and they all taught not to associate any partners with God. This is the FIRST commandment and common message in all religions. Guidance from God use to come for a particular nation like OT came for Jews. Jesus PBUH came to guide lost sheeps of Israel, He never came for entire humanity. Quran is the final message which came for entire humanity and that is why it is preserved by Allah. In other words, Quran is the latest and final upgrade of human guidance and since it is latest and final message, for anyone who is born after Quran is revealed has to follow Quran to succeed in Hereafter.

People who died as Jews before Jesus came and practiced Torah will be in heaven. Those who followed whatever was revealed in Injil will be in heaven and Muslims will be in heaven only if they follow what is revealed in Quran. Those children who die before they hit puberty will be in heaven regardless of their religion.

I understand what you are trying to say. But in the process you admitted that Jesus PBUH is not God and was a human being like us.

I am also aware that Muslim women may not marry non-muslim men (I wish you would have volunteered this information). And I am aware of different versions of the Jizyah tax. The lowest I have heard is 2.5% and the highest historical one around 50%, and the different versions of collecting it.

That is one of my concerns relating to these verses. Should there not be a common repository or explanation for these that does not make it readable by small elements of the Islamic world as:
- a reason to hate / distrust / not mingle with Christians / aetheists
- the formations of supremacist ideology; or
- reasons to be intolerant?

Ummm...you also pointed out that many don't follow the Quran. In one breath you are claiming 'the example of Muslims isn't relevant because they aren't following the Quran' and in another 'The examples of Muslims show that idea is logically, not in the Quran'...It can't be an absolute in both directions.

But as I said - if I read it right, the following:

3.28. Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return.

3.118. O you who believe! Take not as (your) Bitanah (advisors, consultants, protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans, Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse. Indeed We have made plain to you the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses) if you understand.

3.149. O you who believe! If you obey those who disbelieve, they will send you back on your heels, and you will turn back (from Faith) as losers.

5.51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliya' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliya', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).

5.80. You see many of them taking the disbelievers as their Auliya' (protectors and helpers). Evil indeed is that which their ownselves have sent forward before them, for that (reason) Allah's Wrath fell upon them and in torment they will abide.

There's probably others, but it appears to say not to integrate (there are others saying such), not to believe non-believers (how you can trust your employer with such, I'm not sure), not to hire non-believers (so presumably the reverse should be true), and not to be friends with them (which would make work with non-believers difficult). But as I said - this was only if I have read this correctly.

I read them. The reason I raised the 'not to believe non-believers above believers' is that this is both in the Quran, and apparent in several Islamic States. As Islamic States are largely influenced by their religious leaders, one would think that they have a very good understanding of Islam, and as there are several doing it, it must also be a common understanding.

This was why I asked if you have links to any sites that deal specifically with these sorts of questions (I can't seem to find one)

You need to study anthropology, science, human evolution, and how we homo sapiens evolved.

Homo sapiens evolved from the apes. It's called evolution and science.

If a Muslim women marries a non-Muslim man, the religious identity of one’s progeny is less likely to be preserved in a marriage between a Muslim woman and non-Muslim man. Where as when Muslim men marry Christian or Jewish women, there is a high chance that the non-Muslim wife would accept Islam.

Regarding Jizya, your source of information is questionable. It is not true, Jizya has always been a reasonable amount which non-Muslims can easy pay. Below is a link for more details.
https://askaquestionto.us/article/zakat/jizya-in-islam



In my previous post I explained in detail that why Muslims should not make non-Muslims their close friend. You can goback and read my explaination in the previous post.



As I said guidance comes from Allah. Those who are sincere will understand what exactly Quranic verses mean and those who are not sincere will not see any light. This includes not only extreme Muslims but also non-Muslims who quote the verses from Quran to claim they have understood Quran better than Muslims.

Muslims are more than 25% of world population if everyone will understand that Quran teaches to kill non-believers then no one will survive today. 9% of Muslims are peaceful and they understand the message of Quran, yet to blame Muslim for any terrorism is nothing but ignorance.

Which suggests that 91% are violent. Is that what you meant to say?

lol, I meant to say 99%. Good catch.

I meant to say 99% of Muslims are peaceful and those so called Muslims who promote terrorism at the name of Islam are not even 1% of Muslim population.

Fair enough.

On this we agree.

As you rightly pointed out - each person is responsible for their own actions - others are not responsible for the acts of an individual. As you were the one who raised this, I am extremely disappointed that you arrived at the quoted conclusion. I have not taken aim at Muslims (without qualifiers, in English this means the general Muslim population).

Rather, I have specifically stated two things that I criticised / have concern with:
- the violent / intolerant versus of the Quran, and how they could be interpreted; and
- the small percentage of Islamists who have interpreted them in a violent / intolerant way
That isn't 'blaming Muslims' - that is criticising the violent / intolerant / non-integrating versus in the Quran, and the small percentage of Islamists who have interpreted them in a violent way.

I read it. Judaism and Christianity used to have similar concepts, and probably still do amongst fundamental groups. I don't agree with it, in any form amongst religions, because it leads to segregation, with leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to intolerance (in both directions).