29
   

If Adam and Eve were created perfect, how could they sin?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Oct, 2019 05:27 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
I don't agree with it, in any form amongst religions, because it leads to segregation, with leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to intolerance (in both directions).
I see the same phenomenon happening in our politics. It poisons the mind to become blind to being human; that we are all equal in every way. Only religion and politics has a way to segregate the masses into groups, and by looking at history, it's not been healthy; for family, friends, and country.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 03:45 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It poisons the mind to become blind to being human
Have you noticed that this attitude has permeated western culture?

How many:
- sue others (eg obstetricians) because 'they aren't meant to be human - they are meant to be perfect' (so when something goes wrong, it must be negligence, rather than normal human imperfection)
- expect government & service industry employees to cop their abuse, because 'they aren't meant to react, they are meant to be courteous and professional, no matter my conduct'
- conspiracy theorists don't think about the human nature element of their theories, because they think that lots of people can be downright evil (as opposed to lot's of people motivated by greed, which is always a possibility- and many 'conspiracies are not conspiracies, but lot's of individuals motivated by greed and similar ideologies)
- are suspicious of any person in a position of authority (eg. police) forgetting the human behind the uniform or authority
- complain about others 'infringing on my rights' even when that complainer is doing the same (ie. Others can't infringe on my rights because I'm human, but I can on theirs because they really aren't human). Road ragers are a perfect example of this
- have little sympathy for 3rd world countries they invade, because they really don't see those people as human (that is to say, they refuse to truly contemplate the human cost of their countries actions)
- criticise strangers on social media, hurling abuse they would never do face to face with a human face

It's a phenomenon I've been watching become more entrenched over the decades.
0 Replies
 
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 09:52 am
@vikorr,
Sorry did not get time in past few days to check the replies to my posts.

Quote:
As you rightly pointed out - each person is responsible for their own actions - others are not responsible for the acts of an individual. As you were the one who raised this, I am extremely disappointed that you arrived at the quoted conclusion. I have not taken aim at Muslims (without qualifiers, in English this means the general Muslim population).

Rather, I have specifically stated two things that I criticized / have concern with:
- the violent / intolerant versus of the Quran, and how they could be interpreted; and
- the small percentage of Islamists who have interpreted them in a violent / intolerant way
That isn't 'blaming Muslims' - that is criticizing the violent / intolerant / non-integrating versus in the Quran, and the small percentage of Islamists who have interpreted them in a violent way.


I think I stated this earlier that guidance comes from God. Same Quran will make many Muslims who love to be peaceful because Quran puts so much emphasis on the rights of people (Muslims and non-Muslims). Same Quran can be a source of misguidance for people, it has nothing to do with ambiguous verses. It only has to do with guidance. Allah did not open their heart to see the light because they did not make an honest attempt to understand the message. If someone one reads Quran to find faults in it, I don't expect him/her to find guidance. If someone reads Quran only to interpret it in support of their ideology then again they did not come to the Book of Allah seeking help.

This was a general comment and my intention was not to point it out to you. I am sorry if you felt that way. As I mentioned before that you are a very bright person and look at things very differently compared to many others. We can be smart and intelligent but to find God we need to ask for His help. You can call this God whatever you want but only thing which is important is that God is one and there is none like Him.

Anyways if you have any other specific questions about Islam then feel free to ask. Keep it one at a time and I will try my best to explain. Feel free to state your opinion openly, I don't get offended because I know you are looking at things from a different POV.

Quote:
I read it. Judaism and Christianity used to have similar concepts, and probably still do amongst fundamental groups. I don't agree with it, in any form amongst religions, because it leads to segregation, with leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to intolerance (in both directions).


Put a bad apple in the basket of good apples, what will happen? Good apples will become bad in few days.

If you go to a bar every day is there any chance that you will end up start drinking alcohol? Yes absolutely.

If you have friend who smoke marijuana, is there a chance that you will get interested to try that as well. Yes absolutely.

That's why even though Muslims can be friends with non-Muslims but it should never be so close that it starts affecting their own belief system.
Good company is very important for anyone. If you want to see who you are, then take five of your close friends. Add good and bad things of your friends and trust me those will reflect you. Hope this makes sense.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Oct, 2019 04:55 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Hi Habib,

Even though I may disagree with you on certain points, I do find you to be very articulate in your explanation of your beliefs.

I understand what you are saying relating to the guidance of God. My preference would be that we don't have violent/intolerant/etc verses ambigious - or at least minimise the ambiguity. Ambiguous verses create too many problems amongst those prone to dominance over others - and in the human realm there are always those prone to dominance over others (in every race throughout every time period of history). The need for dominance goes from the very lowest of people, right up into the people in power - but the explanation of that is an almost separate discussion altogether.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 11:35 am
@vikorr,
Thanks Vikor!

I have similar thoughts about you. I totally understand that you look at Islam from a totaly different POV than I do. This is understandable. I have found Islam to be very peaceful and tolerant religion. May be we should discuss whatever questions you have one by one. It is a matter of discussing openly in a respectful way and hope this will help us to bridge some gaps and remove the doubts which we have on certain things. So let me know the verses which you think promote violence. I will explain my POV and listen to what you have to say. Sounds fair?
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 02:53 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Hi Habib, although that sounds very fair, that wasn't the intention of my discussion. I think we went through a series of different but related topics and ended up here, and as you say, it's probably time to put this one to rest. Also, this thread is about something else.

Mind you, if you have any recommended books, I am always open to reading them. Just a note - I read them from both sides. Unfortunately, I find that is the only way to get a complete picture.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 03:05 pm
@vikorr,
I recommend to read Quran cover to cover at your own. Believe me you will not need an interpreter because it is a dialogue between you and your creator ( even if you don't believe so). In this journey feel free to ask any questions which may come to your mind and may be write them down. You will find the answer to your questions within the Quran. Keep in mind that one can only determine the true path by putting aside emotions and prejudices, which often blind us to reality. Then, and only then, will you be able to use your God-given intelligence and make a rational and correct decision.

If you do want to listen to Islamic scholars and their commentary on Quran, I highly recommend Nauman Ali Khan.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 04:10 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
Keep in mind that one can only determine the true path by putting aside emotions and prejudices, which often blind us to reality
It's one of the reasons why simple words like 'every' are important, and just as importantly, using qualifiers to talk about specific sections of a population, rather than the whole. The language we speak programs our minds. If we misuse words, our beliefs suffer, because we don't pick up on our own faulty logic.

For me though, my mind picks up on patterns, and particularly inconsistencies. I am not satisfied with inconsistent patterns as a guide to life. The only thing I have found to hold true, is my own observation of life, and the patterns I see in them.

Although I do believe that many Muslims are peaceful, loving people, I see a pattern of intolerance that runs through countries where Islam is entrenched (church bombings, killings of people who criticise the prophet, flogging people who criticise Islam, riots when cartoons are drawn of the prophet, surveys that list the percentage of sympathisers for Al Qeida and the like, and the list goes on). Then I read the extensive criticism of other relgions in the Quran, the constant repetition of muslims are winners all others are losers, and the verses that say not to believe non-muslims over muslims, and unfortunately - those patterns match the intolerance that such verses would generate. The point of this list is not to criticise muslims in general - as I mentioned - many muslims arrive at good, peaceful, and happy conclusions from the Quran. The point is to point out that there is a pattern in Muslim dominated countries relating to non-muslims that seems to permeate so many such countries, and seem, to me, to match particular parts of the Quran.

There are patterns in secular countries that can be just as bad - and I've criticised many of them.

Put another way - I see a problem with a book from which similar patterns of behaviour are derived that detriment others to such an extent, just as I have an issue with any secular ideology that results in similar. I am a critic of overt patriotism for this reason. Same with the mantra 'greed is good'. Same with the extreme capitalist agenda. Same with the concept of pre-emptive strikes (this is almost never needed, and Iraq certainly was not necessary). Same with multi-cultural policies that don't also have a policy relating to how to best integrate newer members of the society (ie. immigrants), with a view to reducing the potential for future conflict / discrimination. Such integration doesn't just come down to laws saying 'don't do X!'.

All that said - I have been meaning to read more of the Quran.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Oct, 2019 04:48 pm
@vikorr,
It is a good thing that you are still making an effort to read the Quran and you are open to hear both sides with an open mind. I don't know what is in your heart but one thing I know that those who have good intentions and sincerely seek the truth, will be guided to the truth. As I said before, keep your heart and mind open and give it a try.

Now in order to address rest of your post, I would say that murder is one of the major sins in Islam. Quran says:

Quote:
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.[Quran 5:32]


I am not sure how one can interpret in any other way to promote killings at the name of Islam? Quran does not promote terrorism. Yes, there are verses in Quran for fighting in the path of Allah but all of those are for self defense or when someone harms Muslims by breaking a Peace treaty or when someone oppresses them.

What will you do if someone invades your own house? Would you not fight back? What will you do if you have a peace treaty with someone who breaks it and help your enemies to fight against you?

Quran still tells Muslims to show kindness when fighting with those who do the things I mentioned before:

Quote:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)


Even in self defense there are rules laid out which you will not find in any other religion or not even in man made laws of our modern society. For example it is forbidden for Muslim to wage a war without prior waring to the opponent, one can't cut off supply of natural resources, one can't kill women and children and those who take shelter in places of worship which includes mosques, churches, temples, synagogues etc., one can't kill anyone who surrenders, one can't kill animals and can't even cut the trees etc. This is in war which is in self defense. I will quote few hadith below with references:

Quote:
The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #1744, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3015]


And he would advise them:
Quote:
...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child. [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #1731, and Al-Tirmizi, #1408]


And he also said:

Quote:
Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years. [Narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #3166, and Ibn Majah, #2686]


Muslims are even encouraged to be kind to animals and are forbidden to hurt them. Once the Prophet Muhammad said:

Quote:
A woman was punished because she imprisoned a cat until it died. On account of this, she was doomed to Hell. While she imprisoned it, she did not give the cat food or drink, nor did she free it to eat the insects of the earth. [Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2422, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #2365]


He also said that a man gave a very thirsty dog a drink, so God forgave his sins for this action. The Prophet was asked, “Messenger of God, are we rewarded for kindness towards animals?” He said:

Quote:
There is a reward for kindness to every living animal or human.[ Narrated in Saheeh Muslim, #2244, and Saheeh Al-Bukhari, #2466]


Below are links of few videos on this topic:

For the video on link below, you can hear entire video which is 20 minutes or so, or you can skip to start after 8:00

https://www.islamreligion.com/videos/4617/islam-and-terrorism/

You can skip th evideo if you like to and may be hear after 36:00 ( this is for video in the link below):

https://www.islamreligion.com/videos/11268/muslim-terrorism-and-islam/

If you like to read then there is also a link below from the same website:

https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/238/what-does-islam-say-about-terrorism/

A link which has several videos on current issues and opinions from Islamic scholars ( from the same website):

https://www.islamreligion.com/category/1083/current-issues/
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 02:59 am
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
It is a good thing that you are still making an effort to read the Quran and you are open to hear both sides with an open mind.
An open mind and / or a search for the truth requires that one be willing to test consistency. In other words, if something goes against your understanding - you need to be willing to honestly look at why it does so.

Quote:
Quran does not promote terrorism.
No it does not. Though I doubt that those carrying them out consider their actions to be truly acts of terrorism, rather than acts of war / jihad.

Quote:
Yes, there are verses in Quran for fighting in the path of Allah but all of those are for self defense or when someone harms Muslims by breaking a Peace treaty or when someone oppresses them.
Going by Mohammed's example, and the example of the early generations, these are problematic. For example:
- many Muslims probably consider or suspect that the west oppresses them. I've little doubt this contributes to Islamist terrorist justifications amongst themselves
- the early generations conquered/spread their way from Mecca, to cover the Arabian peninsula, then to the Atlantic Ocean, and east into India - all within 200 years. No sane person can honestly argue such as 'acting in self defense'. I've little doubt this little fact contributes in large degree to Islamist justification for 'terrorism' (from their perspective, Jihad).
- I vaguely recall treaties being problematic in the Quran. Did Mohammad do what essentially was a 'pre-emptive strike'? I would have to re-read the passages.

Quote:
Quran still tells Muslims to show kindness when fighting with those who do the things I mentioned before:
And several places telling them to strike at the neck - hence the beheadings IS used to carry out.

Don't get me wrong - I don't mean at all to dismiss the passages you have quoted. The Quran, as far as I'm aware, has always had a duality to it's nature: a book of peace, kindness, and mercy...and a book of intolerance (sorry, there is nothing else I can call it's berating of other religions), supremacy (again, nothing else I can call it constantly calling muslims winner & all else losers, placing muslims above others, disparaging others), and intolerance. I don't say this to offend you, but rather - because there are many of these passages in the Quran.

It's an interesting book - it has plenty of beauty to it...even while I willnever deem as good, or ignore so that I can think 'it is so good', the amount of passages it contains that promote intolerance.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 10:45 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
An open mind and / or a search for the truth requires that one be willing to test consistency. In other words, if something goes against your understanding - you need to be willing to honestly look at why it does so.


I agree. There are good and bad in every society and in every religion. If you see a small minority doing bad things and label that as teaching of Islam then it is unfair. I said this before, if all Muslims believed in violence then World will come to an end within one day. I suggested this before that you find a mosque near your home town and interact with Muslim to see if they are loving and peaceful people or not. If all of your research is based on the information you got from Islamophobic websites then this will nothing but misinformation.

Quote:
No it does not. Though I doubt that those carrying them out consider their actions to be truly acts of terrorism, rather than acts of war / jihad.


I agree and you listed a good point in your reply which I will quote here.

"Many Muslims probably consider or suspect that the West oppresses them. I have little doubt that this contributes to terrorist justification among themselves."

You nailed it my friend. Was Iraq war justifiable? Was Afghanistan war justifiable knowing that it was America who created Taliban to fight against Russia? Who suffered most? Why is America supporting Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons so that they can continue fighting in Yemen against Shia Muslims? I know this is all political setup to grab power but who suffered in this war of power. Poor Muslims who lived in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria etc. Millions have lost their homes and we have this huge refugee problems. Millions of kids have lost their parents. What do you think these Muslims will do? Love the West for what they have done to them? Of course it is oppression and killing Muslims at the name of so called war against terrorism. ISIS is one of the Taliban group which at one point was supported by America. Anyways, sad thing is that in this so called war against terrorism Muslim are the actual victims but are portrayed as one who spread and promote terrorism. Is this really that hard for someone who is neutral to see?

This reminds me of a verse from Quran:

Quote:
And when it is said to them, "Do not cause corruption on the earth," they say, "We are but reformers." Unquestionably, it is they who are the corrupters, but they perceive [it] not.


It is legitimate to wage a war when someone attacks on America ( I am referring to 9/11) but it is not legitimate to wage war against those who oppress Muslims in their own lands? Muslims in Kashmir and Palestine have been waiting for over 70 years for UN to resolve their issues. UN keeps passing resolution but did nothing to get freedom for people of Kashmir. Muslims in Kashmir are being oppressed and they don't even have a right to fight against oppression?

Quote:
the early generations conquered/spread their way from Mecca, to cover the Arabian peninsula, then to the Atlantic Ocean, and east into India - all within 200 years. No sane person can honestly argue such as 'acting in self defense'. I've little doubt this little fact contributes in large degree to Islamist justification for 'terrorism' (from their perspective, Jihad).


I think you could have seen the reply to this in that 20 minute video I posted in my previous post. Today the fastest growing religion in America and Europe is Islam. The Muslims in these lands are a minority. The only sword they have in their possession is the sword of truth. It is this sword that is converting thousands to Islam.

Quran says:

Quote:
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. (Quran 2:256)


Let's also look at some of the facts because facts speak for themselves:

· Muslims ruled Spain (Andalusia) for about 800 years. During this period the Christians and Jews enjoyed freedom to practice their respective religions, and this is a documented historical fact.
· Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan all have significant Christian and Jewish populations.
· Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years, and therefore had the power to force each and every non-Muslim of India to convert to Islam, but they did not, and thus more than 80% of the Indian population remains non-Muslim.
· Indonesia is the country that has the largest number of Muslims in the world, and the majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. But, no Muslim army ever went to Indonesia or Malaysia. It is an established historical fact that Indonesia entered Islam not due to war, but because of its moral message. Despite the disappearance of Islamic government from many regions once ruled by it, their original inhabitants have remained Muslims. Moreover, they carried the message of truth, inviting others to it as well, and in so doing endured harm, affliction and oppression. The same can be said for those in the regions of Syria and Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, North Africa, Asia, the Balkans and in Spain. This shows that the effect of Islam on the population was one of moral conviction, in contrast to occupation by western colonialists, finally compelled to leave lands whose peoples held only memories of affliction, sorrow, subjugation and oppression.
· Similarly, Islam spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. And likewise no Muslim army was ever dispatched to the East Coast of Africa.

You can read more in the article, link below:
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/677/was-islam-spread-by-sword/

Quote:
Don't get me wrong - I don't mean at all to dismiss the passages you have quoted. The Quran, as far as I'm aware, has always had a duality to it's nature: a book of peace, kindness, and mercy...and a book of intolerance (sorry, there is nothing else I can call it's berating of other religions), supremacy (again, nothing else I can call it constantly calling muslims winner & all else losers, placing muslims above others, disparaging others), and intolerance. I don't say this to offend you, but rather - because there are many of these passages in the Quran.

It's an interesting book - it has plenty of beauty to it...even while I will never deem as good, or ignore so that I can think 'it is so good', the amount of passages it contains that promote intolerance.


Trust me i am not offended. I know how non-Muslims think of Islam and understand their concerns. The only way we can bridge our gaps is by talking to each, listening to opinion of others with respect, understand that we both are looking at samething through glasses of different colors. Your POV could be very different form mine but if we dont talk, then our differences will only grow. Understanding Muslims and Islam is becoming essential as Muslim population is growing rapidly in the West and it is only possible with face to face dialogues with Muslims or having interfaith get togethers. We have lot more common with one another as we are all humans and our needs are the same. Yes there are differences but those are very small and could be resolved if we start talking to each other.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 10:52 am
@HabibUrrehman,
HabibUrrehman wrote:

This shows that the effect of Islam on the population was one of moral conviction, in contrast to occupation by western colonialists, finally compelled to leave lands whose peoples held only memories of affliction, sorrow, subjugation and oppression.


Which begs the question why is Africa the most Christian continent on earth.

Quote:
Christianity is now one of the two most widely practiced religions in Africa. There has been tremendous growth in the number of Christians in Africa - coupled by a relative decline in adherence to traditional African religions. Only nine million Christians were in Africa in 1900, but by the year 2000, there were an estimated 380 million Christians.




It certainly doesn't look if Christianity is only known for only memories of affliction, sorrow, subjugation and oppression.

And the Muslims did not leave Spain peacefully either.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 11:01 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:

It certainly doesn't look if Christianity is only known for only memories of affliction, sorrow, subjugation and oppression.

And the Muslims did not leave Spain peacefully either.


The point relevant to our discussion is that Muslims ruled Spain for more than 800 years. If religion was to be forced on people then 800 years in enough to convert everyone to Islam. And we see that was not that case. Same goes with Africa and India.

This life is a test. Allah does not keep us in the same condition all the time. Sometimes He tests us by giving us more and sometimes He tests us by taking it away. There was a time when Muslims ruled over Spain, sub-continent and Africa and that was part of God's plan. If today there are more Christians in Africa then thats is also God's plan. I believe that nothing happens without the Will of Allah and whatever happens is for a reason. We may be able to see the answer of these questions in our life time and it is quite possible that it may take centuries until we truely appreciate why things happened. We may not be here to see the answer, but our generation can definitely see it.

I was upset when I saw 9/11 and everyone thought Muslims in West are going to be wiped out. In reality the exact opposite is happening, 9/11 made people to question Islam. People started to read what Quran says and it has resulted in many people who converted to Islam. Islam is fastest growing religion in West despite all the hate in the media. And today after 15+ years, I can see how 9/11 helped Islam in the West.

Attack in the mosque in Newzeland was another tragidiy which upset many Muslims but we know how it helped many in newzealnd come closer to Muslims. They saw visited their mosques and listened to what Muslims belive. It again is resulting in large number of people accepting Islam in Newzeland.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 12:20 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
I'm fairly certain Islam was the fastest growing religion in the West prior to 9/11.

Some of the prospective adherents weren't motivated by a desire to do good either.

I would be very careful in attributing anything positive to acts of terror. You may be misinterpreted, and there are some on this forum who would deliberately misinterpret it.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 12:26 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I would be very careful in attributing anything positive to acts of terror. You may be misinterpreted, and there are some on this forum who would deliberately misinterpret it.


Thanks for your advice as always. Those who love to pick on Islam will need no reason to criticize. But you are right I should avoid mentioning these events.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 12:40 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
One of my first memories of Islam was the conversion of Cat Stephens. I'd only just heard of him. We used to stop off at one of my father's workmate's house en route to my grandparents. His daughter was really into Cat Stevens, I nodded like I was aware of him.

Next mention was back at school when the headmistress brought him up because he'd just released the hymn Morning has Broken on record. He thought it was such a beautiful song that we'd have to sing the bloody thing over and over again. We have a state religion over here, back then all assemblies were broadly Christian.

Next thing he'd converted to Islam changed his name to Yusuf Islam, and it was no more music. That was a good thing, no more bloody hymns.

I think the decision to drop music at the time was more to do with him than his religion, and a quick google shows he still has his guitar. I think his story is quite positive and it's long before certain events.

https://catstevens.com/
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 01:06 pm
@izzythepush,
Thanks for sharing. I just read his biography on the link you shared and it is fascinating. Who would have thought than a musician like him will revert to Islam. I understand that it was before any major events of our time. But still there are many who accept Islam even after those major events which has labelled Islam as religion of Terrorism. One such example is Lauren Booth ( sister in law of Tony Blair). She accepted Islam in 2010 and I can imagine how hard that would have been for her. Since you live in UK, you probably know more than I do about her story of accepting Islam.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 02:22 pm
@HabibUrrehman,
Quote:
You nailed it my friend. Was Iraq war justifiable? Was Afghanistan war justifiable knowing that it was America who created Taliban to fight against Russia? Who suffered most? Why is America supporting Saudi Arabia and selling them weapons so that they can continue fighting in Yemen against Shia Muslims? I know this is all political setup to grab power but who suffered in this war of power. Poor Muslims who lived in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria etc. Millions have lost their homes and we have this huge refugee problems. Millions of kids have lost their parents. What do you think these Muslims will do? Love the West for what they have done to them?
I am a critic of these actions as well. I disagree with Iraq. I and am aware of how the US essentially created the Taliban, and why. The invasion of Afghanistan is problematic. But I would go further and say contributing factors include:
- The division of the ME / creation of it's Kingdoms by England/France after WW1 (this probably wouldn't be a major contributor - but rather add to the 'evidence' of those set on terrorism)
- the CIA coup in Iran in 1951, and its propping up of their puppet Shah
- the military bases in Saudi Arabia
- the CIA stations in many or most ME countries
- the support of Israel
- the current threats by the US against Iran
- probably even the way 'Foreign Aid' is administered, given, or withheld, and the conditions that come with such aid.

As I said - I read from both sides of the story. You can tell they with hold things / give a very slanted perspective by the inconsistencies that arise when viewed against the results. One side appears to never tell the full story. I guess politically minded people are the same the world over.

Quote:
We have lot more common with one another as we are all humans and our needs are the same. Yes there are differences but those are very small and could be resolved if we start talking to each other.
All humans have a lot more in common than they will ever have differences. Unfortunately, history shows this doesn't stop people from believing otherwise. Tolerance goes up & down according to times, information, integration, and beliefs...but intolerance has never fully disappeared from anywhere. That is to say - talking can help reduce the level of intolerance, though it will never completely solve it, human nature being what it is.
HabibUrrehman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 03:52 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
All humans have a lot more in common than they will ever have differences. Unfortunately, history shows this doesn't stop people from believing otherwise. Tolerance goes up & down according to times, information, integration, and beliefs...but intolerance has never fully disappeared from anywhere. That is to say - talking can help reduce the level of intolerance, though it will never completely solve it, human nature being what it is.


True. We can never find true peace in this world because this world is created to test who will do righteous deeds and who will follow their evil desires instead. Battle between good and bad will remain until we see our next destination in Hereafter.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Oct, 2019 05:25 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr, I agree with your analysis. I even wrote to Senator Diane Feinstein not to approve the war, because 1) there was no evidence of WMD's, and 2) We would be the aggressor nation. She wrote back, and told me, that with the information they had, she had to approve the war. That war ended up killing many innocent people, including our soldiers and innocent civilians living in that country. The fact: 4,424 kil
As of June 29, 2016, according to the U.S. Department of Defense casualty website, there were 4,424 total deaths (including both killed in action and non-hostile) and 31,952 wounded in action (WIA) as a result of the Iraq War.
Casualties of the Iraq War - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 04/24/2024 at 05:06:29