Which sounds natural? 1 or 2?

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1) All sufferings past, now and to come during the travel are not meant for regretting taking the travel but for not regretting in the end that the travel were not taken.

2) All sufferings past, present, and to come during the journey should not cause regret for the path taken but satisfaction that the path was not abandoned.

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[+3] - Frank Apisa - 01/28/2013In my opinion...neither. Anytime one has to struggle to understand what is being said..."what is being said" is being said poorly. If it is being said poorly, it just does not sound...

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@oristarA,

In my opinion...neither. Anytime one has to struggle to understand what is being said..."what is being said" is being said poorly.

If it is being said poorly, it just does not sound "natural" to me.

2 Replies

Both sentences are excessively long.

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@contrex,

contrex wrote:

Both sentences are excessively long.

Then please make them short.

2 Replies

@oristarA,

oristarA wrote:

Then please make them short.

1. Such a peremptory command is disrespectful.
2. The meaning of the sentences is not clear.
3. Doing other people's homework does not help them to learn.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

I agree with Frank. Both options sound unnatural.

The journey i.e. path needs a reason not to be abandoned or regretted e.g. a 'worthwhile' journey/path. So, out of context, this sentence seems to lack a reason for 'not regretting'.

Also, you talk about 'not regretting in the end' but you confusingly mention earlier 'sufferings.. to come'. So, in some sense you are talking about the future end of the journey/path but also earlier stating that the journey/path has yet to be completed.

We IMHO need two 'new' options to choose from i.e. a rewrite is necessary.

You are basically needing to give advice that: If you start a worthwhile journey there is no need to regret the hardships (sufferings) encountered along the way and when the path has been completed you will have the satisfaction of knowing those hardships did not make you abandon the journey.

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@oristarA,

e.g.

http://www.michaeljcollinsmd.com/hotlightsquestions.php

The original title for this book, The Way There, was taken from a quotation by Wilfred Thesiger: "It is not the goal but the way there that matters. And the harder the way, the more worthwhile the journey." Collins and his wife, Patti, have said elsewhere that the years they spent at the Mayo Clinic were among the happiest of their lives. To what extent might it be said that the hardships they encountered during those years added to, rather than detracted from, their happiness?

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@oristarA,

Quote:

In my opinion...neither. Anytime one has to struggle to understand what is being said..."what is being said" is being said poorly.

Language needs context. When there is no context, when speakers are not privy to the surrounding context, language can indeed be opaque.

Frank is repeating an old saw heard from some grade school grammar teacher or an old style manual, a la Strunk and White.

1) All sufferings past, now and to come during the travel are not meant for regretting taking the travel but for not regretting in the end that the travel were not taken.

This one is not natural. It sounds stilted, has poor word choice and uses what I believe is a hypercorrection - 'were' rather than 'was'.

2) All sufferings past, present, and to come during the journey should not cause regret for the path taken but satisfaction that the path was not abandoned.

Number 2 sounds natural. It's so understandable that I can paraphrase it, though I'm not suggesting my word choice is the most perspicacious.

All sufferings past, present, and future/to come during the journey should not cause a person to regret taking that path, but rather that person should feel satisfaction in that/satisfied that the path was not abandoned.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Frank is repeating an old saw heard from some grade school grammar teacher or an old style manual, a la Strunk and White.

I did not repeat any saw...old or new or from any source.

I just gave an opinion that it did not sound natural to me...which was in response to the question asked.

Glad to see you are still obsessed with me though, JTT. Nothing like a a dependable fan to make one feel warm and fuzzy.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Glad to see you are still obsessed with me though, JTT. Nothing like a a dependable fan to make one feel warm and fuzzy.

We're all obsessed with you, Frank. How could any warm-blooded sentient being fail to be?

1 Reply

@contrex,

Quote:

Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5239147)
Frank Apisa wrote:
Glad to see you are still obsessed with me though, JTT. Nothing like a a dependable fan to make one feel warm and fuzzy.

We're all obsessed with you, Frank. How could any warm-blooded sentient being fail to be?

Ahhh...hadn't considered that. Now I really feel warm and fuzzy...although the oatmeal, toast, and orange juice may have something to do with it.

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@oristarA,

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Anytime one has to struggle to understand what is being said..."what is being said" is being said poorly.

This then, following "your" reasoning, was said poorly, Frank, because it required a degree of concentration. You also broke one of the major peeves of prescriptivists, you used the passive.

But it was actually said in quite a neat fashion. I commend you.

You have struggled mightily with the sources I've provided you on language issues, so much so that you were incapable of discussing them. Why? Because sometimes there are concepts that are simply beyond a person - this applies to us all. Such is the nature of learning.

This notion you raised is indeed an old saw because I've heard it repeated in various forms by numerous English teachers and style manuals wags.

1 Reply

@contrex,

contrex wrote:

oristarA wrote:

Then please make them short.

1. Such a peremptory command is disrespectful.
2. The meaning of the sentences is not clear.
3. Doing other people's homework does not help them to learn.

I'm sorry Contrex.
But I didn't mean to be peremptory.
At least I've now learnt, however, that such an expression is an improper form of requesting.

Thank you and thank you all.

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@contrex,

Quote:

Both sentences are excessively long.

Do you really think so, C? "excessively"??

2) All sufferings past, present, and to come during the journey should not cause regret for the path taken but satisfaction that the path was not abandoned.

There's just one independent clause and a second dependent one.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

Quote:

contrex wrote:

Both sentences are excessively long.

Quote:

Ori replied: Then please make them short.

Quote:

Contrex replied: 1. Such a peremptory command is disrespectful.

Quote:

Ori replied: I'm sorry Contrex.
But I didn't mean to be peremptory.
At least I've now learnt, however, that such an expression is an improper form of requesting.

This is an interesting pragmatics question.

pragmatics - the study of how language is used in particular situations to express a meaning or attitude that may not be obvious from the actual words (MacMillan Dictionary)

Your expression is not necessarily always an improper form of request, Ori. In some situations it would be more than adequate. It's hard to put my finger on exactly why it was viewed as a bit short/curt, although, I do agree with Contrex that it seemed so, even with the "please".

Had another of "equal" stature, say language teacher to language teacher, used it, it may still have had the peremptory edge, but it could be seen as justified in such a situation. Said face to face in a language discussion, with the appropriate intonation, it would be fine.

I guess it was just that you were making a request for something, there was some measure involved that those who would reply may have to go to some effort, however small, to help you.

Maybe it's the unspoken "teacher/student" relationship. Maybe it was the 'then' at the start of your sentence??

Anyway, a 'could' thrown in always helps.

Then could you show me how to make them short/shorter?

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@JTT,

Quote:

You have struggled mightily with the sources I've provided you on language issues, so much so that you were incapable of discussing them. Why?

Not sure why you think I have "struggled mightily" with them...or why you think I have struggled with them at all. I haven't.

And I am certainly willing to discuss anything with you.

So the "why" you asked of me should more properly be asked of you.

Quote:

Because sometimes there are concepts that are simply beyond a person - this applies to us all. Such is the nature of learning.

If you say so!

Quote:

This notion you raised is indeed an old saw because I've heard it repeated in various forms by numerous English teachers and style manuals wags.

Well, I haven't. It was just something that occurred to me as I read the OP...so I shared it in my response.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Not sure why you think I have "struggled mightily" with them...or why you think I have struggled with them at all. I haven't.

Because of how badly confused you remain on language issues and how you were unable to understand what was discussed in those sources. I'm pretty sure that you didn't even read many of them.

Quote:

So the "why" you asked of me should more properly be asked of you.

I'm not the one badly confused on language and how it works, Frank, you are.

Quote:

Well, I haven't. It was just something that occurred to me as I read the OP...so I shared it in my response.

You think it was an original thought. You repeat so many old canards about language that it's impossible that you escaped this one, given as you are to collecting these style manuals, given that you were exposed to the instruction given in English grammar in the US.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5239866)
Quote:
Not sure why you think I have "struggled mightily" with them...or why you think I have struggled with them at all. I haven't.

Because of how badly confused you remain on language issues and how you were unable to understand what was discussed in those sources. I'm pretty sure that you didn't even read many of them.

I am not badly confused on them...nor am I confused. You simply state those things gratuitously. Most of the stuff you ask me to read I skim. They bore me. I don't want to learn your rules for proper language useage.

Quote:

Quote:
So the "why" you asked of me should more properly be asked of you.

I'm not the one badly confused on language and how it works, Frank, you are.

Well, you are confused about whether or not I am confused. So ask yourself "why?"

Quote:

Quote:
Well, I haven't. It was just something that occurred to me as I read the OP...so I shared it in my response.

You think it was an original thought.

If you got the impression that I was suggesting no one else had ever had that thought, JTT, you have even deeper problems than I suspect. My point was that I did not come by the expression because of recollection from previous readings. It spontaneously came to mind while reading the OP...and I shared it. I have no idea of the genesis of the thought.

Quote:

You repeat so many old canards about language that it's impossible that you escaped this one, given as you are to collecting these style manuals, given that you were exposed to the instruction given in English grammar in the US.

I am delighted, although doubtful, that you can determine what is impossible for me in this area.

I am also delighted in your preoccupation with me...your obsession. In return, I can tell you I consider you to be one of my favorite fans.

(I really appreciate that yesterday you actually went back nine years to question one of my comments from back then. Such dedication! Wink

)

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Do you really think so, C? "excessively"??

Yes, by which I meant that it had too many words.

1 Reply

Which sounds natural? 1 or 2?

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