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The far right rewrites history

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:11 pm
Scrat wrote:
Fedral wrote:
As a still ongoing History Major ( at the rate I can take classes, I should graduate sometime around my retirement. Laughing ) I take umbrage to ANY historical distortions in either direction. History should be about facts, dates and actions, not about pushing a political agenda from either side.

Just my 2 cents (pre tax)

Is beginning with the assumption that our country and our heritage is something of which our children should be proud "pushing a political agenda"?

Yes, since it immediately colours the data one will use (in order to avoid presenting information which may run counter to one's thesis) and because it states a purpose: "I want children to be proud to be 'murrrcun'" instead of rather than posing a question: "What has occurred in North America since contact with Europeans?" Do you really not understand the difference?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:13 pm
Facts, dates and actions might have been taught by ("bad") history teachers in school ... some 80 years ago. But history as 'scientific work' means ..., well, it's answered above in hobitbob's response.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:16 pm
I have found myself guilty of lapsing into the "facts, dates, etc.." method when teaching Hist 1010 (Western Civ I). It is intellectuall laziness on the part of an instructor, nothing more. Sad
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:30 pm
Scrat wrote:
I read the original citation as complaining of this kind of thing, yet I thought you argued that it was a fallacy to suggest that such a thing was occurring. Did I miss something? Perhaps you see the two as being different in a way that I do not? Confused


Yes, the piece which Fed posts objects to a bias in either direction, as do i. The originally cited piece calls for the injection of a bias into the teaching of history.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:51 pm
Scrat wrote:
Is beginning with the assumption that our country and our heritage is something of which our children should be proud "pushing a political agenda"? I'm not asking to be contentious. I want to understand how you mean this. Thanks.


Absolutely. To claim otherwise is patently retarded. Americans should be no prouder about the brutal subjucation and extermination of Indians than Germans should be of thier Nazi past.

The fact that you predicate your worldview on the assumption that pride in ones country - no matter what the facts may be - is acceptable in such circumstances speaks volumes. You shouldn't feel bad though, your myopic paradigm is the norm in most places, for most people, in most times. It is not likely to change any time soon.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 04:56 pm
Setanta wrote:
Scrat wrote:
I read the original citation as complaining of this kind of thing, yet I thought you argued that it was a fallacy to suggest that such a thing was occurring. Did I miss something? Perhaps you see the two as being different in a way that I do not? Confused


Yes, the piece which Fed posts objects to a bias in either direction, as do i. The originally cited piece calls for the injection of a bias into the teaching of history.

I suppose that even the most well-intentioned nationalism must be considered "bias", but is all bias bad? Really? When we teach children about our laws don't we include a bias that they should respect those laws and obey them? Isn't at least part of the reason why should they respect and obey the laws of this society that it is best for the society if they do so? Can we teach children to obey the laws of our nation without teaching them to respect the nation?

I'll give you that what the author advocates is replacing one bias with another, but I find a value inherent in teaching children to have an allegiance to the nation they will one day help to shape. If I care about my home, I'm more likely to work hard on it and take good care of it.

YMMV.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 05:00 pm
In my historical peregrinations since age seven (that's 46 years, for those without sufficient information to do the math), i spent about the first 20 years amassing the facts, dates, names, etc.; and simply revelling in that aspect of history which is still the dearest to my heart, the ripping good story. I've always been delighted by the knowledge that both history and story derive from histoire, which means either or both in the French language, depending upon the context.

Our Pet Hobbit wrote:
The work of history is synthesis. Drawing conclusions from available evidence.


This is not possible, of course, without the facts, dates, names, actions, etc. Actually writing out my thoughts on-line, first at AFUZZ, and now here, has contributed marvelously to my ability to synthesize what i've learned. My original purpose (at about age eight) was to get a sufficiently good grasp on American history that i could judge for myself whether or not what i was being fed in school was accurate. (Largely, although not inaccurate, it lacked more than a naive synthesis, and tended, as intended, to inculcate patriotric pride.) My grandfather has steered me toward Goldsmith's Greek mythology, and Hamilton's mythology and her The Greek Way, from which i progressed to condensed versions of Mommsen, and Livy, Tacitus, Polybius, Seutonius . . . starting with a solid foundation in "western history," and having decided to investigate the origins of the culture and society of which i was a part, i found myself being drawn back through history to my starting point, and then being drawn outward in all directions. It is impossible to study western history thoroughly without knowing the history of Asia and Africa, and eventually of "the new world." This is why a narrow focus on "western culture," which is vaguely referred to in the resolutions HB has linked, and never defined, is immediately suspect. Consider simply the European collision with the Muslim world. Andalus (Spain) was a colony of Muslim, Berber Africa. There was no unitary state, which made it eventually possible for the unified kingdoms of Aragon and Castile to mount the military effort necessary to expel the Muslims (and, shortly thereafter, the Jews as well). I cannot begin to speculate what sort of lunacy lead successive Popes and other religious charlatans to decide that Europeans needed to conquer "the Holy Lands," but the crusades in the east had much the same effect as the Reconquista in Andalus/Spain. From these dual, long-lasting events, we got the astrolabe, which made it possible for the Portuguese captains of Prince John the Navigator to circumnavigate Africa and reach the Persian Gulf, eventually going on to India and China. We got many words, and the ideas they implied: alcohol, admiral, magazine, bazaar, bizarre (yes, same word twice), algebra, algorithm, zero, talisman, nadir, hazard. So in the end, i came, many years ago, to the conclusion that there is not in fact any discrete western culture. Rather, "western culture" is a synthesis, like good history, and an eclectic one, in the original meaning of the word, chosen from many sources. The very fact that this joker calls for an emphasis on "western culture," as though students were being taught something else, makes the suspicion of a hidden agenda very strong. What i've just done with Arabic and Berber contributions to language and culture can be repeated with Turkic, Sanskrit, Chinese, Japanese; with the cultures of Egypt, of Abyssinia, of old Zimbabwe, of the Indus valley, of the plains of the Oxus river, of the Central Asian highlands, of the Toltecs of central Mexico, of the Mayans, of Inca--western culture has been a great sponge, soaking up whatever appeared useful, and a good deal of the simply frivolously entertaining. To truly teach "western culture," it is necessary to teach world history. This joker has a plan, and it don't mean the honest teaching of real history.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 05:05 pm
Scrat, teaching children to obey the law is not a bias, it is a realistic recognition both of the value of the social contract, the the likely unpleasant consequences of not playing nice with others. You're defining bias to a point of meaninglessness.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 05:18 pm
I like how you don't make any sense here. Its cute.

Scrat wrote:
I suppose that even the most well-intentioned nationalism must be considered "bias", but is all bias bad? Really?


When that bias is used either directly or indirectly to inform various sorts of policy, then yes, that bias is always bad.

Quote:
When we teach children about our laws don't we include a bias that they should respect those laws and obey them? Isn't at least part of the reason why should they respect and obey the laws of this society that it is best for the society if they do so? Can we teach children to obey the laws of our nation without teaching them to respect the nation?


What does the fact that laws must be obeyed in order for any society to function properly have to do with unconditional blind pride in our history?

Nothing.

Quote:
I'll give you that what the author advocates is replacing one bias with another, but I find a value inherent in teaching children to have an allegiance to the nation they will one day help to shape. If I care about my home, I'm more likely to work hard on it and take good care of it.

YMMV.


Blind pride is not neccessary for allegiance.

Further, it will only hamper peoples ability to "shape" the nation in the future. Reality is always preferable to delusion is such cases.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 05:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
Scrat, teaching children to obey the law is not a bias, it is a realistic recognition both of the value of the social contract, the the likely unpleasant consequences of not playing nice with others. You're defining bias to a point of meaninglessness.

I respectfully disagree. Teaching that the law is and what it allows or disallows is to teach fact. Instructing children that they should obey the law is to teach a bias. That it is a pervasive and (for most of us) positive bias which we rarely question, doesn't mean it is not a bias.

But perhaps another example: We can teach children the facts that (A) Martin Luther King, Jr. gave the "I Have A Dream" speech, and that (B) James Earl Ray shot and killed MLK. Those are facts and as presented so far they are devoid of any bias. Of course, schools also teach children that MLK was a great man, and JER not so great. Despite the fact that it is one on which I assume we all agree, surely you must concede that we have now moved from teaching the facts of history and have begun telling children what to think and how to feel about them. This too is bias. Not bad, but bias.

I'm sure that you and I each could come up with reams of examples of positive types of bias taught to children; you shouldn't hate people just because they are different... that's a bias, you should take care of the environment by not littering or wasting water... another bias. The issue then isn't whether we ought to be teaching bias, but whether a given bias has merit or does not. I think that teaching children a reasonable amount of national pride and patriotism is a good and appropriate thing. Can it be overdone or done wrongly? Sure. Can't anything?
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 06:23 pm
Logic?
"I look around me and around the world and on the whole it appears to me that Western culture is turning out to be superior to anything one might call "non-Western" culture." Scrat

Rolling Eyes
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 06:54 pm
Reading the book, Lies My Teacher Taught Me, made me realize how little accurate history I was taught in school.

I graduated from high school in 1961, having been given a typical 50's education biased against Communism and any country or person who might have been considered to be against the values of the U.S. Americaa was always right, honest, generous, ingenious and to be admired for its trailblazing forays into the west, fighting the dastardly Indians all the way.

Later, in reading the histories of the west and some of the massacres of the Indians, I was horrified and sickened by the total lack of humanity shown by the US Army toward the Indians. The Ludlow Massacre and the Sand Creek Massacre are two powerful examples. While reading these stories, I was also proud of those who protested the blind killing of old men, women and children. To me, this showed, in a realistic way, that this nation was built and formed by people who had all the values and qualities and baseness of anyone in the world. It showed how many citizens of this country stood up to power and faced down those who tried to make their actions appear to be patriotic and protective of the settlers.

I also doubt that Colorado school children are taught that Denver, in the 1920's was politically controlled by the KKK.

If I had learned of both sides of the story, I would have graduated with a much better understanding of history and of how change can be implemented by people who have very little power.

By learning of the horror we can appreciate more deeply the heroism of those who fought against it.

Political correctness is just as harmful, IMO, as rightist teachings. Without balance, we short-change our children and prevent them from learning to find sources to back up their ideas and to use logic and skills of analysis in their studies.
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 06:59 pm
Diane - I completely agree with you that we must teach an accurate national history, including the terrible mistakes we've made, so that each generation can learn from the mistakes of the last and hopefully not repeat them. My point is not to whitewash our history, but simply that I would rather we present the facts in context--that at our best we are following our ideals and at our worst we are turning away from them. My fear is that we are teaching our children that because we have failed our ideals at times it means we are a nation without ideals, that because we have been base we have never been noble.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 07:06 pm
Scrat wrote:
There is a PROFOUND difference between advocating putting forth a positive message about one's nation and advocating "avoid<ing> the full truth of our history just so we feel good about ourselves".


Is there? I dont get it.

If you want to use history classes to "put forth a positive message about one's nation", one will have to present the occurrences of history in a way that stresses the nation's positive achievements, and doesnt stress the negative bits - or presents the negative bits only in the context of things that have been overcome, were exceptions to the rule, etc. How does that not automatically imply avoiding the full truth?

Telling the full truth about anything is very hard to do when you are committed to being "positive" about it.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 07:09 pm
I seem to be some eighty posts late ...
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Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 07:10 pm
nimh wrote:
Scrat wrote:
There is a PROFOUND difference between advocating putting forth a positive message about one's nation and advocating "avoid<ing> the full truth of our history just so we feel good about ourselves".


Is there? I dont get it.

If you want to use history classes to "put forth a positive message about one's nation", one will have to present the occurrences of history in a way that stresses the nation's positive achievements, and doesnt stress the negative bits - or presents the negative bits only in the context of things that have been overcome, were exceptions to the rule, etc. How does that not automatically imply avoiding the full truth?

Telling the full truth about anything is very hard to do when you are committed to being "positive" about it.

I'm going to copy and paste from the post above yours so you don't have to scroll up ONE POST and read what I wrote:

Quote:
My point is not to whitewash our history, but simply that I would rather we present the facts in context--that at our best we are following our ideals and at our worst we are turning away from them. My fear is that we are teaching our children that because we have failed our ideals at times it means we are a nation without ideals, that because we have been base we have never been noble.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 07:41 pm
Scrat wrote:
I'm going to copy and paste from the post above yours so you don't have to scroll up ONE POST and read what I wrote:


Yeh like I said, I was 80 posts late. I replied to the front page of this thread, not having seen there was a page 2 and 3.

Meanwhile, though, your post doesnt address my question at all. When you write,

Quote:
I would rather we present the facts in context--that at our best we are following our ideals and at our worst we are turning away from them.


... nobody can disagree with you. We all want our schools to teach about the good and the bad things. (The only thing most of us disagree with is what HB denounced as "the fallacy that teachers are only teaching Western Civilization as an evil influence" now. It seems most here are under the impression that what the teachers are nowadays trying to do is exactly present both the best and the worst of the country's history, rather than, as was done in the past, only the best.)

It is, however, one step further to insist on schools teaching "a positive message about one's nation". To teach the good and the bad with equal scrutiny does not a positive message about one's nation make - it makes for an ambivalent message. To turn it into something explicitly positive, you will have to either fuzz the harder edges of one's history or, more sophisticatedly, teach the bad parts too, but only within some metastory that evokes progress and victory - the bad things are what we have overcome, because the good is predominant in our nation.

That, imho, is not objective history anymore - that's ideology. Hence my question - what is that "profound" difference you talk of? How can one put forth the full truth of one's history - but still make it so that it "puts forth a positive message about one's nation"?

IMHO, history classes should be neither about instilling pride nor instilling shame - they should be about recounting what happened, and evoking students to think and discuss about to which extent it was good or bad themselves. It is not up to the teacher to make that decision for them.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 08:49 pm
I think you are all wrong. I believe teachers are using lesson plans and unit plans that they made when they get the text books they use and try to get their students to pass their classes. MOST teachers are working to get a paycheck and maybe try to have a positive effect on some of their students. There is too little time in school to teach history the utopian way. They teach what they can and send the kids home with a textbook to prepare them for a final exam. That's it. There's no hidden agenda in the history departments of our schools, the only hidden agenda is a concern to get our children on to the next grade.

If there is a problem with history in schools, let's discuss who is writting and editing the history texts...
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 08:55 pm
This is twice I've agreed with McGentrix. I must be ill...
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2004 08:57 pm
McGentrix wrote:
I think you are all wrong. I believe teachers are using lesson plans and unit plans that they made when they get the text books they use and try to get their students to pass their classes. MOST teachers are working to get a paycheck and maybe try to have a positive effect on some of their students. There is too little time in school to teach history the utopian way. They teach what they can and send the kids home with a textbook to prepare them for a final exam. That's it. There's no hidden agenda in the history departments of our schools, the only hidden agenda is a concern to get our children on to the next grade.

If there is a problem with history in schools, let's discuss who is writting and editing the history texts...


There is alot of truth in the statement above. I don't think any of us are blaming the teachers themselves, but rather, the entire system and the general way history is percieved in our country.
0 Replies
 
 

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