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Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea- Bush or Kerry?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 08:50 am
au1929- IMO, whatever Bush is, ( and there ARE plenty of deficits) he is steadfast in his approach to terrorism.

I believe that we are at war today. It is not like the wars fought in the past, where the blue uniforms shot at the green uniforms, but a true war, nonetheless.

I am concerned with Kerry's apparent attitude, as I perceive it, as a peacenik. I fear that the terrorists would use this as a means to gain more ground, and cause more disruption in the world, especially in the US.
0 Replies
 
L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 08:55 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
Is it true that France, China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have expressed support for Kerry? If so, that scares the hell out of me.


L.R.R.Hood- And therein, in two sentences, you have focused on the gist of my dilemma.


Ah, I see. You and I seem to agree on a lot of things, I've noticed. I fear the Patriot Act that Bush has come up with. I see Bush as a potential for Big Brother, yet I see Kerry as a potential for our national language to go from English to Arabic... if you know what I mean.

I was watching CSPAN this morning,and there was a man talking about the Bill of Rights Defense Committee www.bordc.org and it was great what he was saying... but he didn't express support for either presidential candidate. I'm tired of only having to bad choices... I know there are other political parties, but I'm not sure they are worth voting for.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:17 am
Quote:
I see Bush as a potential for Big Brother, yet I see Kerry as a potential for our national language to go from English to Arabic... if you know what I mean.


L.R.R.Hood - Are you sure that you are not my kid brother? He said practically the same thing to me, when I discussed my ambivalence, but he was extrapolating as to what might have happened if Gore had been President.

Take a look at these two articles. The first one is from 1989, and has been discussed on A2K. I found the second one recently. I find the whole thing fascinating, and frightening!

http://www.d-n-i.net/fcs/4th_gen_war_gazette.htm

http://www.antiwar.com/lind/index.php?articleid=1702
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Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:28 am
I think you should listen to the words of the men:

Here is John Kerry from his most recent speech on foreign policy:

Quote:
I do not fault George Bush for doing too much in the War on Terror; I believe he's done too little.

Where he's acted, his doctrine of unilateral preemption has driven away our allies and cost us the support of other nations. Iraq is in disarray, with American troops still bogged down in a deadly guerrilla war with no exit in sight. In Afghanistan, the area outside Kabul is sliding back into the hands of a resurgent Taliban and emboldened warlords.

In other areas, the Administration has done nothing or been too little and too late. The Mideast Peace process disdained for 14 months by the Bush Administration is paralyzed.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:37 am
Piffka- Thanks. That is an illuminating article. I cannot wait until Bush and Kerry debate.

There is one thing that I find disturbing. In the article that you quoted, Kerry says,


Quote:
Second, if I am President I will strengthen the capacity of intelligence and law enforcement at home and forge stronger international coalitions to provide better information and the best chance to target and capture terrorists even before they act.


http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/obermann/040217

Quote:


Something does not compute!
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:44 am
Phoenix wrote
Quote:
au1929- IMO, whatever Bush is, ( and there ARE plenty of deficits) he is steadfast in his approach to terrorism.


If he is so steadfast in his approach to terrorism why than instead of cleaning up that mess in Afghanistan did he attack Iraq. Imagine if the resources wasted in Iraq, yes I said wasted, would have been used to track Bin Laden in his lair and around the world. Frankly
Pheonix wrote
Quote:
I am concerned with Kerry's apparent attitude, as I perceive it, as a peacenik.



That is the impression that Bush is trying to sell with distortions and misstatements. Read some of the articles that appear in MSNBC that put a lie to Bush's claims. Kerry may have been against the Viet Nam war when he returned from fighting there but than so were millions of American's. What gives you the impression that he will not go after Al Qaeda and complete the mess that Bush started in Iraq? I should note that Bush's war on terror has not been a smashing success.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 09:51 am
Can you imagine the catastrophic results of a world under the control of peaceniks? why it could mean........peace. We must avoid this at any cost.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:07 am
Quote:
Can you imagine the catastrophic results of a world under the control of peaceniks? why it could mean........peace. We must avoid this at any cost.



Bi- Very funny. Who the hell WANTS war? But a peacenik is a sitting duck for terrorists who would like nothing more than to wipe the US (and possibly the entire Western world) off the face of the earth!
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:15 am
Re: Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea- Bush or Kerry?
Thomas wrote:
(Full disclosure: I'm a (small-L) libertarian, so in terms of America's two-party system, the center of gravity of my political convictions is probably closest to moderate Republicanism. I am longing for the days of Richard Nixon, when Republican presidents still had a modicum of integrity that made them electable for people like me. Unfortunately these days are over. But personal attacks on George Bush won't convince anyone, so I'll leave it there.)


How can you even use the name Nixon and the concept of integrity in the same month? Nixon was a traitor who betrayed his country's peace initiative to extend political conditions favourable for his election.
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:19 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine the catastrophic results of a world under the control of peaceniks? why it could mean........peace. We must avoid this at any cost.



Bi- Very funny. Who the hell WANTS war? But a peacenik is a sitting duck for terrorists who would like nothing more than to wipe the US (and possibly the entire Western world) off the face of the earth!



This is another example of the paranoia which is a defining trait in so many Americans.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:20 am
thank you phoenix, although I sense a lack of sincerity......with all due respect you are making the same mistake that bush inc wants you to make...namely that people who want peace above all things are cowards who will allow terrorists to have their way. Untrue. I am a peacenik but if you come to my property to kill me I will kill you first with no hesitation, and kill your children and grandchildren if they happen to be with you, so they don't come back later, and then sit back down to dinner.

You can be a "peacenik" and clear the way for other "peaceniks". You can go to war if it is forced upon you and there is no other choice and do what's necessary, but do it reluctantly while staying on message and not throwing gas on the fire instead of running around with a hard on for it and be obviously delighted by it.

We are a nation that has become paralyzed by fear of terrorists and war to the exclusion of all other issues, and we have an administration that wants just exactly that.

When the last terrorist is gone and you turn your eye back to your own country to find that while we were watching bush's right hand fight terror and occupy all our resources and attention while the left hand went on its merry way, looting our treasury, redefining our constitution and our very way of life, raping our health and education system, our environment, and returning us to a virtual if not literal feudal lord society tell me, what will be the fruits of our victory over terror and the "evil doers"?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:26 am
Quote:
You can be a "peacenik" and clear the way for other "peaceniks". You can go to war, do what's necessary, but do it reluctantly while staying on message and not throwing gas on the fire.


Bi- I have no problem with that. I just think that we just have a different perception of the term "peacenik", which has negative connotations for me.

Quote:
When the last terrorist is gone and you turn your eye back to your own country to find that while we were watching bush's right hand fight terror and occupy all our resources and attention while the left hand went on its merry way, looting out treasury, redefining our constitution and our very way of life, raping our health and education system, our environment, and returning us to virtual if not literal feudal lord society tell me, what will be the fruits of our victory on terror?


Why do you think I am so conflicted? I share many of the same anxieties as you!
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gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:26 am
I would like to ask the resident "wits" to proffer a remotely plausible scenario in which the language of the US would become arabic. You needn't try too hard because I have an enormous capacity to suspend my disbelief. I will not however entertain any conjecture of any arabic invasion of the US unless of course it is in the circumstance that all americans were overseas on military duty.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:30 am
Quote:
I would like to ask the resident "wits" to proffer a remotely plausible scenario in which the language of the US would become arabic.


Gozmo- That remark was just a flight of abstract fancy. It was not meant to be taken literally!
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:34 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
You can be a "peacenik" and clear the way for other "peaceniks". You can go to war, do what's necessary, but do it reluctantly while staying on message and not throwing gas on the fire.


Bi- I have no problem with that. I just think that we just have a different perception of the term "peacenik", which has negative connotations for me.

Quote:
When the last terrorist is gone and you turn your eye back to your own country to find that while we were watching bush's right hand fight terror and occupy all our resources and attention while the left hand went on its merry way, looting out treasury, redefining our constitution and our very way of life, raping our health and education system, our environment, and returning us to virtual if not literal feudal lord society tell me, what will be the fruits of our victory on terror?


Why do you think I am so conflicted? I share many of the same anxieties as you!


What does peacenik mean to you then? And apply it to John Kerry for me please so I'll understand your feelings about him.

PS You know I love you dear, just keeping the conversation lively. :wink:
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:35 am
George Bush may not be a terrorist but it is likely his policy has terrorised more individuals than the action of all International terrorists in the past twenty five years. Further, it presents the greatest threat to liberty in the West since WWII.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:36 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
You can be a "peacenik" and clear the way for other "peaceniks". You can go to war, do what's necessary, but do it reluctantly while staying on message and not throwing gas on the fire.


Bi- I have no problem with that. I just think that we just have a different perception of the term "peacenik", which has negative connotations for me.

Quote:
When the last terrorist is gone and you turn your eye back to your own country to find that while we were watching bush's right hand fight terror and occupy all our resources and attention while the left hand went on its merry way, looting out treasury, redefining our constitution and our very way of life, raping our health and education system, our environment, and returning us to virtual if not literal feudal lord society tell me, what will be the fruits of our victory on terror?


Why do you think I am so conflicted? I share many of the same anxieties as you!


What does peacenik mean to you then? And apply it to John Kerry for me please so I'll understand your feelings about him.

PS You know I love you dear, just keeping the conversation lively. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Scrat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:37 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
Can you imagine the catastrophic results of a world under the control of peaceniks? why it could mean........peace. We must avoid this at any cost.

I suspect you would find quite the opposite would be true. Imagine a Middle East where Saddam Hussein's neighbors were peaceniks. I suppose you could argue that having the entire Middle East under Saddam's control would have meant it was all at "peace", but what kind of peace?

Take a look at a book called "The Treaty Trap". Reagan used to refer to it often. It is a scholarly study of the use of treaties and agreements with other nations as the primary method of national defense. What you will find if you look at the facts (rather than "feeling" what is right :wink: ) is that of all nations who put their faith in treaties rather than maintaining a strong military and the plausible threat of retaliation to keep their neighbors at bay, NOT ONE SUCH NATION still exists. In EVERY case, these nations were wiped off the face of the planet by other nations who desired their land, their resources, their "stuff".

I don't have a lock on my front door for people like me who respect the rights of others; it's there for those who don't. Likewise, we don't need our military to protect us from nations who are happy to coexist peacefully with us, it's the others that make maintaining our military superiority critical to our continued survival as a nation.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:41 am
Scrat I think we're going to have to define peacenik here for the sake of the discussion. I believe desiring peace is an admirable trait.

That doesn't mean I don't think peaceniks ever have to go to war. It means I don't think peaceniks are so damn gung ho for it and I don't believe war defines decent people.

bush inc. are not, IMO decent people, and no amount of smoke and mirrors will change my mind.
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2004 10:43 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
I would like to ask the resident "wits" to proffer a remotely plausible scenario in which the language of the US would become arabic.


Gozmo- That remark was just a flight of abstract fancy. It was not meant to be taken literally!


Such comment are usually indicative of an underlying hostile prejudice and should be used with the greatest of care. It is flights of fancy which will comprise the messages with which you will be bombarded in the approaching television campaign. Sadly, flights of fancy elect governments in this age of "impressions". Indeed, flights of fancy such as "WMD" lead citizens of powerful nations to destroy the weak.
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