For Christians - why is the Universe so big?

Frank Apisa:
Isaid it to you before in Abuzz, and i well say it to you again in A2K , you know darn well that we are all agnostics, but that should not prevent us from not accepting such an obviously
crass solution as a God creature as the Creator of this immense unknowable.
Being an atheist doesn't mean that he
"Knows" .....only that he can't accept such simplicities. But hey,!!! better an agnostic than a
a God guy!

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g__day wrote:

Personally I think we need to understand "what is time" better before we can talk to infinities existing or not in theoretical physics.

Something in my gut makes me feel our definition of one dimensional time flowing in one direction is incomplete..........

time is merely an illusion created by the life process; living things exist in a 'grow' mode, where the spacial relationship of things on a necessarily micro scale 'appears' to have direction.
Entropy, on the other hand if it could 'know' itself, would be convinced that time flowed backward.
Actually time does not 'flow' at all; it is simply our 'name' for the measurement of relationships between objects in space, and the process in which they 'morph' form one state to another.
Our atomic clocks measure the expansion of the universe, in increments which our minds can grasp as they relate to our metabolisms; and it is us who give this phenominon a direction.
Direction is 'being' specific.

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and i wish to, once again thank Frank for his unflagging effort in supplying an unending resource of 'ambiguous' evidence for us to draw upon! Laughing

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truth
BoGoWo, I agree with your description of time, as an aspect of our notion of "space". But would you not also consider it as an aspect of "change"?. It seems to me that time is also a useful conceptual aspect of "change" in The Present, in which the situation continuously changes but does not go from one location to another in space.

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fascinating thought; perhaps it is our 'viewpoint' of things that is changing, and this we register as a temporal flux.

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http://www.frankandernest.com/images/archive/100/1000205.gif

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Guys I should NOT say time flows - that is a very imprecise and possibly miss leading statement. And I agree that it is our concious perception that leads us to a one way arrow of time and that it is one dimensional in our Universe.

We need a much better understanding of what time is - and how it is inextricably woven into the fabric of the other dimensions that make up our reality before we can talk even theoretically with confidence.

I ponder is time one of the least understood aspects of modern day physics - even theoretical physics. And in our reality - since after the big bang - can time exist at all by itself. I view that in our Universe - in any domain where quantum physics holds sway (e.g. outside of black holes or cosmic strings) that time only exists as part of spacetime (at least in our present day theoretical models). Note within a black hole - where quantum physics can be very differently in control - I seem to remember time and space practically swap properties with each other - mind bending huh?

So if time exists before the big bang - it wasn't our current spacetime - as space didn't exist - is was other time, or as Hawking's says virtual time.

Fun to see this is still alive!

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g_day, I agree. I don't like the metaphor of time "flowing" because it implies a movement from past, through the present, to the future. Earlier I phrased this in terms of a river flowing upstream (future) from downstream (past). This metaphorical model reified time, whereas there is only change in the present (which is itself hard to grasp if one thinks of it as the "point" in which the no-longer-existing past becomes the no-yet- existing future. If one must compare time to water. I'd rather think of it in terms of a bubbling surface--going nowhere but being a changing here.

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JLNobody wrote:

g_day, I agree. I don't like the metaphor of time "flowing" because it implies a movement from past, through the present, to the future. Earlier I phrased this in terms of a river flowing upstream (future) from downstream (past). This metaphorical model reified time, whereas there is only change in the present (which is itself hard to grasp if one thinks of it as the "point" in which the no-longer-existing past becomes the no-yet- existing future. If one must compare time to water. I'd rather think of it in terms of a bubbling surface--going nowhere but being a changing here.

What is the white stuff in chicken poop?

Chicken poop

I know .... crazy weird gelis but ..... think about it.
Is time different over there from over here?
try separating the white poop from the dark.

Time is time is space is movement is stationary .... the only measurrement of its reality is a becoming memory, time is recycled you know.
At least thats the way these eyes see it

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Gelisgesti wrote:

What is the white stuff in chicken poop?

Uric acid, and it's a rather neat evolutionary trick to conserve water:
Bird excretion

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Think of time as 'peanut butter' ... there has to be a point where peanut butter starts and a point where it stops ... else you got a universe full of never ending peanut butter and then the bottom falls out of the market and I'm not sure you want that ...........

I think you are confusing mind and brain ..... brains, like computers are devoid of intelligence. The end or point of the cone signifies the point where we 'sense' time that when sensed, becomes the present, as it passes, becomes the past and as it travels through the second cone, is sensed to a lessor and lessor degree til it passes into memory to be stored in the physical ..... the brain. Be it wave or binary code, time is measured in its comings and goings or more correct 'sensed'.

Why should time be like peanut butter? I suspect that it is more like our atmosphere, which has no discrete point where air ends and space begins.

Brains are quite intelligent (most of them, anyway). A lot of the stuff we think the mind does is merely a story it tells itself to explain what the brain has already done.

There is a time lag of about 1/2 second before we are consciously aware of sensory data. So the mind is never really in the "present" moment of time. Consciousness fuzzes out the ends of the time cones so the point is rounded, not sharp.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

Terry wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Think of two cones, joined at the large end ... now place yourself in the middle of the connection. Time flows toward you from a point of perception ... visualized as the pointy end of the cone (foci), is sensed and translated instantly, either as it is passed through you or vice versa ... could be either, not sure of the ramifications of one over the other. It is only through that passage .... a second becomes a second ..... time is born .... orrrrrrr .... revisited, then flows off toward another point of perception as sensed.
The questioned that is begged? How many points of perception can a tri dimensional brain process .... simultaneously?

Brains don't perceive time as a point, but more like a wave. We are standing on the crest and there is no exact point where you can say that our sense of the "present" starts or stops. It can be a microsecond, a few seconds, or even hours, days, or years depending on context. (The "present" in geological terms can span millions of years.)

Terry, are you sure?

Think of time as 'peanut butter' ... there has to be a point where peanut butter starts and a point where it stops ... else you got a universe full of never ending peanut butter and then the bottom falls out of the market and I'm not sure you want that ...........

I think you are confusing mind and brain ..... brains, like computers are devoid of intelligence. The end or point of the cone signifies the point where we 'sense' time that when sensed, becomes the present, as it passes, becomes the past and as it travels through the second cone, is sensed to a lessor and lessor degree til it passes into memory to be stored in the physical ..... the brain. Be it wave or binary code, time is measured in its comings and goings or more correct 'sensed'.

Terry

Quote:
(The "present" in geological terms can span millions of years.)

Wouldn't the 'present' be the brink of two eternities, the past and the future, or, right now?

the brain is the perceptive/processing organ which, in order to organize the universe into useful 'bits', converts time, as the relationship of all aspects of the universe, into a 'linear' experience, to render the micro (relative) environment navigable.

the 'mind' is the mental spokesperson of the brain; the ringmaster/cheerleader/master of ceremonies, if you will (simply an 'interface').

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g__day wrote:

Isn't the Copehhagan Interpretation just a smart variant of the strong anthropic principle - adding wave functions to collapse possibility trees the moment intelligent life occurs and an observation is done?

You still have an infinity in your calculations, making matters just that extra degree more out there.

Yes, the Copenhagan Interpretation is a variant of the SAP. A serious problem with it is the time it would take for observers on earth to affect the existence of the rest of the universe. Assuming that the collaspe of wave functions is limited by the speed of light, a galaxy a billion light years away could not exist until a billion years after we were here to see it, and then it would take another billion years for the light from that galaxy to reach us.

So how can we explain the fact that we observe galaxies that appear to have existed for billions of years before we did? Perhaps the universe spawned conscious life forms all over the place.

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BoGoWo wrote:

the brain is the perceptive/processing organ which, in order to organize the universe into useful 'bits', converts time, as the relationship of all aspects of the universe, into a 'linear' experience, to render the micro (relative) environment navigable.

the 'mind' is the mental spokesperson of the brain; the ringmaster/cheerleader/master of ceremonies, if you will (simply an 'interface').

Yes, but IMO the brain perceives time as linear because time really is linear. Irreversible processes, memories of change, and entropy suggest that there really is a one-way arrow of time.

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visavis wrote:

I believe so firmly in God and Christ because of my hours of discussion, reading and thought about just this very topic about science and theology. Theological physics is the only possibility I can forsee as being the explanation which breaks the G.U.T. which would describe the 'actual' laws of the universe and what ever lies beyond.

I have been lead to this by the process of thought everyone has gone through where did we come from - that leads inevitably to the 'well what created that - what did that come from' chain all the way till you must say 'I dont know' or ' I cannot answer that' and at that point when I see such perfection such "fine tuned" laws and universe that you spoke of I see an awesome intellegence was involved in its Creation.
...
From what i have read of hawkings he leans greatly towards the belief of God that I hold. I was very comforted when I read 'A Brief History of Time' as it reinforced many of my beliefs.

Yes, most people pick out the bits of information that reinforce their own beliefs and ignore or discount everything contrary. :wink:

Why do you stop short of asking the obvious question: where did this magical creative intelligence come from?

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Terry wrote:

Gelisgesti wrote:
What is the white stuff in chicken poop?

Uric acid, and it's a rather neat evolutionary trick to conserve water:
Bird excretion

Hi Terry .... the constituents were not the point. That time and homeo saps exist, are givens ..... while the mechanics exist .... either known or unknown, things just dont 'exist .... cause and action do.
That we exist separate from our constituents is of key value. Cut off a leg .... lay it on the ground and it will not walk and once removed from the congregate, the appendage will, with time, return to the constituency.

Question: What part of the recipie allows the congregate, to exist apart from the constituents? Are we mere oportunist ..... or Gods.

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Terry wrote:

Yes, but IMO the brain perceives time as linear because time really is linear. Irreversible processes, memories of change, and entropy suggest that there really is a one-way arrow of time.

just as a computer programme orders letters on a page so it can be read in a linear manner, in order that ideas can be passed along from one person to another, whereas ideas are in no way linear; the brain perceives events in a chronological sequence to simplify interaction within a restricted universal 'byte'.

looking at a star, we appreciate that we are seeing light that relative to our location in space (measured with that little 'tape measure' time) assigns it its 'place'.
and, even though on a temporal basis, that star may be long since burned out, supernova'd, or imploded to a black hole, our relationship to it is the phenomenon of light rays, neutrinos, etc, etc, which interact with our relative position in the universe.

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visavis wrote:

........Theological physics is the only possibility I can forsee as being the explanation which breaks the G.U.T. which would describe the 'actual' laws of the universe and what ever lies beyond.

"laws" is an erroneous adapted term, taken from human transactions, and has nothing to do with science, and universal principles; the so called 'laws of physics, etc., are merely updated observations; the way things appear to 'be' according to years of observation, and research.
calling them 'laws' implies a 'giver of laws' to create them which is redundant to the fact that the universe 'is', and we merely observe and quantify it. It is both anthropomorphosizing, and dieomorphosizing reality.

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Trying to understand what time maybe (from our biased perspectives) is simply mind bending. All our arguments and models have to be very abstract thought pieces.

Meanwhile I am busy trying to absorb why gravity alone is the one force that refuses to be quantised and what implication this has for physics. It tells me we are missing something in our understanding of the most fundamental and mysterious force in existence.

PS I don't lean towards Gravitons and am waiting to see what the analysis of possible Higgs Bosons determines.

Meanwhile there is plenty of reading about the search for a path to quantum gravity - like "3 roads to quantum gravity" http://www.voting.ukscientists.com/smolin.html

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g__day wrote:

Trying to understand what time may be (from our biased perspectives) is simply mind bending. All our arguments and models have to be very abstract thought pieces........

yeah, i know what you mean; i would explain it all to you, but i don't have the "time" Shocked

g__day wrote:

.........Meanwhile I am busy trying to absorb why gravity alone is the one force that refuses to be quantised and what implication this has for physics. It tells me we are missing something in our understanding of the most fundamental and mysterious force in existence.........

try considering that the initial 'cosmic egg' that erupted in the 'big bang' into the universe that we now experience, was matter in its initial, natural, rest state, where everything was 'one'.

and think of 'gravity' as matter's 'wish' to return to the 'womb'!

[doesn't do much to explain the physics of it, but it's a start!]

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For Christians - why is the Universe so big?

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