For Christians - why is the Universe so big?

How'd it go, Lash?

Did it turn out tasty?

hey eorl.

I think I was misunderstood.

i was implying, and i now realize that i did not state,
that all of creation exists to glorify God. I also said long story made short. he doesn't come to christ solely by looking at the stars. as for the rest of the stars, these stars still can be seen, just not with the naked eye; even so they still show the inconcievable vastness of the universe, which shows the even greater vastness of the one who created it.

Now my point overall-- I'm not saying that this theory is how it is. i'm just saying there might not be some huge elaborate purpose for the vastness of the universe; it might be something simple.

What makes you think that? What suggests that this is the case?



How does the vastness suggest a greater vastness?...and if it did, would that not suggest the need for an even greater vastness to have created that greater vastness....and so on?

I'm sorry if I sound rude, it just seems like such a ridiculous notion if looked at properly, rather than just poetically.

Hey Frank,

Sorry I disappeared off the planet right at the point where I was about to convince you to believe in atheism!

(back in "Let's see, where was I")

Don't even mention it.

Fact is, you did as good a job of that by being absent as you would have if you have been here posting every few minutes.

In fact, probably a better job.

LOL I'm sure you are right Frank.

The irony is that I simply want to test your position thoroughly before I consider modifying mine more in your direction. (Feel free to take that as a compliment)

My main reservation at the moment is: are you too certain of your stance at this point? Have you become so certain of your uncertainty that you are no longer as open minded as you think you are?

Do you entertain the notion that your position could be ultimately a "bad" choice despite the logical infallibility?

I do! I sincerely thank you.




Nope.

Here is my position anent the questions about Ultimate REALITY of existence:

I do not know the nature of the Ultimate REALITY of existence...and specifically, I do not know if there is a GOD involved...or if there are no gods. I do not see enough persuasive evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess on most of the questions involved in the nature of the Ultimate REALITY of existence…and most specifically, I do not see enough persuasive evidence upon which to base a reasonable guess about whether there is a GOD involved…or if there are not gods.




Not even slightly…but I try to be open-minded about the issue.

If you have some arguments you think might head me in that direction, I'd truly love to hear them.

I certainly would give them respectful consideration, Eorl.

Thanks Frank,

Rather than pretend to try to convert you to my way, I'll show you my reasoning that leads me to my position and you can either show me the flaws or at least identify the point at which we diverge.

(but hang in there, I need a reasonable window of time to do it properly and I'm just popping in & out of here during work at the moment! )

relativity renders reality a moot question due to reality's subjective nature.
No? Convince me of your reality.

Que' pasa Frank?

The galaxy only looks big today, because we haven't yet succeeded in time travel.

Frank,

The logic that leads me to conclude that it is highly unlikely that any gods have ever existed is basically Occam's Razor.

I see no evidence of any gods.

The universe needs no gods to be exactly as it is. That is to say it is entirely possible to have come about from the big bang without any intelligent direction.

I know that if humans did evolve that inventing gods would be an inevitable consequence of unexplained phenomena.

In other words if we assume there are no gods, would we still invent them?....yes, we would.

I look at all the religions of the world and without exception the mythologies fit the cultures of the people...similarities exist between the religions to the extant that you would expect...but no more than that.

Then there are the paradoxes that preclude things such as omniscience, omnipotence and benevolence co-existing.

Then there are the many MANY reasons why belief in gods prospers...fear of death, the redress of wrongs, the return to loved ones, etc, etc.

Then there is the simple problem of the gods increasingly unnecessary role in unexplained phenomena...no paranormal explanation has ever been proven for anything.
Sure many things remain unexplained but it seems extremely unlikely that suddenly a god will be required to explain any of them. Every day for hundreds of years another mystery gets crossed of the list...turns out - no gods involved.

What was "before" the big bang is a mystery...for a god to have existed "before" that would only complicate the problem more, not solve it!

Perhaps gods do exist, the ones that go to extraordinary lengths to conceal their involvement...the ones who created an entire universe just to test our "faith".

So ultimately I can never prove that no gods exist, but a quick swish of the Razor shows me "beyond reasonable doubt" that there are no gods.

Yes, it's a guess, I know....but it's a guess I would stake my life on any day of the week.

I guess that's why I am prepared to be an atheist despite the impossibility of proof for non-existence.

I think (as I've mentioned before) that you empower theists if you agree that they could be right, when you know it is extremely unlikely.

To call atheism a "belief" in the same category as theism is akin to lumping serial killers with vegetarians because they are both killers.

So there you go..let me have it...what am I missing?

edit: moved paragraph

Eorl, That's exactly how I feel; I prefer to remain an atheist rather than an agonostic, because there's nothing that I have observed that even shows an inkling of any god. I see nature as the overriding 'power.' My observations also sees nothing posivite about religion in any form; it has caused more strife in this world based on religious beliefs. I also see most religions as having dogmas that requires its believers to follow rules that makes no sense such as refraining from eating meat on Friday. Finally, humans use religion to expand their beliefs to impose them on everybody else including jihad.

I am a Buddhist which and I must agree there is no "god". There is a fundamental law of causality which permeates the Universe. There are no "commandments" in Buddhism, or at least the kind I practice.

Nick, There are rules in buddhism, but they are based on relationships with other humans and living things - not with god.

I have just heard from reliable sources that God defaulted on his universe loan and His credors are planning to tear it down and turn it into a parking lot. Just giving you folks the heads up.

So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Nick, Do you know how much that loan was for? I think Bush is giving god a run for the money. LOL