Zardoz
 
  1  
Sat 2 Mar, 2013 08:47 am
@roger,
Roger you have an interesting point but I tend to think that if taxes ever reach a 100% that a revolution would take place before revenue reached zero. We know for a fact that marginal tax rates were over 90% for the ungodly greedy for decades in America and that America biggest prolonged economic expansion and expansion of the middle class took place at that time. As soon as marginal tax rates went down for the ungodly greedy the middle class standard of living began a 30 year downward spiral. Thirty years of history show us high taxes on the few ungodly greedy lead to an expansion of the middle class the next thirty years shows us that cutting the marginal tax rate on the ungodly greedy leads to a decline in middle class living standard. The decline was so steep that nearly doubling the hours worked by a couple left them with less in real dollars than their father earned as a single bread winner.

When you think about this it is quite reasonable when a hedge manager makes $5 billion in a year and we had five hedge mangers make over a billion a couple years ago including the one that made $5 billion the wealth accumulates into lakes of wealth that are held back by a dam controlled by one individual. Most people simply spend everything they make and that money turns over 5 times in the local economy. The hedge manager is single minded and has only one purpose in life and that is to make himself richer. What does he do with his excess wealth? Money saved in taxes is far more valuable than money earned because you don’t have to pay taxes on it. So the hedge fund manager uses his excess wealth to corrupt the political system and bribe politicians. In the example in a previous post the hedge fund manager stands to save $748.5 million a year in taxes if he can bring himself to live on $5 million a year under the “Fair Tax.” At the same time many in middle class will pay over 100% in taxes if they use credit to buy a home or furnishings.

It is the old story about the frog throw him into boiling water he will jump out but boil the water slowly and the frog will be cooked. Under the “Fair Tax” the 100% taxation might work because the tax would be embedded and people would not realize the tax is there. When you bought a $150,000 house the $45,000 in fair tax would just be part of the price and not itemized differently.

H2O would just be another happy frog paying a 100% of his income in taxes much of it on his credit card or browed from the bank and he would be overjoyed that he wasn’t paying his usual 9% income tax.

In the case of an embedded tax like the “Fair Tax” Laffer may have been wrong because many in the public would never be aware that they were paying a 100% in taxes let alone the interest on those taxes for thirty years. But like the lottery there would be winners and losers and the hedge fund manager would only pay .03% in income tax on his $5 billion income far less than his tip on a meal.

We all know a supply and demand curve can be generated to predict the point that maximizes profit. I suspect that a curve for taxation like the Laffer Curve can be developed but accuracy may be a problem because taxation is more complex. Each consumer pays the same for a product but taxation is more complex and taxpayers currently pay different marginal rates and have differing amounts of exemption. The period after WWII a high marginal tax rate was applied to the ungodly greedy to control the effects of malignant greed. Income tax originally was a tax placed on excess greed more in an effort to control the greed than raise revenue.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Sat 2 Mar, 2013 11:17 am
http://www.westernfreepress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/obama_food_stamp_presidency-570x427.jpg
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Sat 2 Mar, 2013 11:21 am
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/ED-AP674A_1WAGE_D_20120824173902.jpg
Zardoz
 
  1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2013 09:26 am
@H2O MAN,
H20 I guessed you missed the fact that Baby Bush policy of making the ungodly greedy even richer had its predicted historical outcome it plunged the country into a depression the biggest depression since the Great Depression. There were no food stamps during the Great Depression. What happened during in the Great Depression? Soup lines formed that were blocks long. People went through garbage cans looking for scraps of food to eat. People shared what they had with bums and hobos. The last time the Republicans screwed America up real bad by making the rich even richer the effects of Great Depression lasted for 15 years.

The economic effects of Baby Bush depression were far worse than the Great Depression there was a far greater economic loss during the Baby Bush Depression than the Great Depression. How are the people eating now? You don’t see the blocks long soup lines or bread in our cities now because of the food stamp program.

Many of those people on food stamps work every day of their lives and because the commie/conservatives have lowered the standard of living of the American worker they have no choice but to take food stamps. America is now reaping the harvest of commie/conservative economic policy. The fact is in the commie/conservative brave new world many couples working 80 hours a week are paid so poorly they cannot feed their children. They need food stamps to feed their children. America has to have a living wage not a minimum wage.

When it comes down to it is the ungodly greedy that are on food stamps. The biggest fortune in America was made possible by food stamps. The Wal-Mart fortune was made possible by food stamps. Food stamps provide a subsidized labor force to make billionaires even richer. It is the billionaires in America who get the most benefit out of food stamps.

The commie/conservatives made laws that let the ungodly greedy swindle most of the private sector employees out of their pensions. Others were converted to defined contribution pension. The average defined benefit pension can provide only $300 a month now far less than rent. The average retirees that paid into his pension 40 years and was swindled by the ungodly greedy will need food stamps to eat the rest of his life. Ten thousand people a day are retiring and many will need food stamps to eat the rest of their life. At one time it was only the poorest of the poor who were poor enough to get food stamps but now many of middle class America will spend their golden years on food stamps.
The commie/conservatives spent 30 years destroying the American standard of living and making the ungodly greedy richer. Frank Meyer, the father of Modern Conservatism, lifetime ambition was to destroy America for his buddies in Moscow. It might not have happened in his lifetime but his disciples will finish the job if they can.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Sun 3 Mar, 2013 09:32 am


Retail Sales Growth Stalls as Tax Hikes Kick In

Retail Sales Growth Pauses as Higher Taxes Kick in
Zardoz
 
  1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2013 10:36 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O you are so easily taken in. Do you have a driveway? I just happen to have some extra asphalt left over. Do you know how that figure was arrived at? That is the median wage and the biggest factor affecting it it is the unemployed. The old story about Bill Gates Rolls Royce breaks down and he goes into a bar. There are four other people in bar who make $40,000 a year what is the average income in the bar after Gates walls in? Gates makes $5 billion a year. So the average income in the bar is a billion dollars a year. The average income in the bar was $40,000 before Gates came in. But if someone told the local women that the average income in that bar was a billion a year they would flock to the bar only to be disappointed.

Your graph is made up of a median and all the people that lost their jobs during the Baby Bush depression are pulling down the graph it does not tell you anything about the median wage of those who are holding jobs which is what you think you are looking at. It tells you median household income and if enough people are out of work and this was the worst depression since the Great Depression you can expect the unemployed to pull the median income down. There was a massive amount of fraud on Wall Street that caused this collapse and as the biggest banks collapsed 100s of thousands of investment bank employees lost their jobs. These employees were extremely high paid some made millions a year. The severance package for one CEO was $161 million. When steel plant lays off 5,000 employee who make $40,000 a year it is one thing but when Wall Street lays off 100,000 highly paid conmen it is quite another. This is an effect of the Bush depression not something Obama caused if history is correct it will take 15 years to fully recover from the Bush Depression.

When I quote a figure that says over the last 30 years the average working couple works 32 more hours a week and they make less than their fathers made working as the loan bread winner it is taken from those that pay taxes. In other words the unemployed are not included to pull the average down. If you wanted to lie with figures the unemployed would have been included and distorted the figures.

Adding the unemployed to the median income has the exact same effect of deceiving people into believing wages are going down when in fact it is more of a measure of unemployment than wages.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Sun 3 Mar, 2013 10:42 am

Poor Zar was taken in at a very early age and never recovered.
Communist propaganda is all Zar knows.
parados
 
  1  
Sun 3 Mar, 2013 10:45 am
@H2O MAN,

You mean the tax hikes the GOP vote for?
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  1  
Mon 4 Mar, 2013 06:32 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O you don’t know the first thing about the origin of your political philosophy. I suggest you read the biography of the communist who is considered the “father of the Modern Conservative Movement. The book is named “Principles and Heresies: Frank S. Meyer and the Shaping of the American Conservative Movement.” Every conservative should know who the hero of modern conservative movement was. Practically every political idea you possess came directly or indirectly from this communist intellectual. The communist party even picked Meyer wife for him.

Don’t you find it strange that a communist intellectual is father of modern conservative movement in America? Meyer’s lifetime ambition was to destroy America for his friends in Moscow. His conservative philosophy hasn’t yet destroyed America but it has done major damage including running the National debt up by 65% by cutting the ungodly greedy taxes by 60%.
__________________________________________________
“Like many of his contemporaries who eventually gravitated to the Right, Meyer as a young man was a radical revolutionary dedicated to the overthrow of the United States government. The communist Party used him in a number of capacities: as an undercover recruiter at the University of Chicago: as student organizer at the London School of Economics, from which Meyer was expelled for distributing communist literature: and as its educational director in the Indiana-Illinois region.”

From the book “Principles and Heresies” by Kevin j. Smant
_________________________________________________
By the way Meyer was still an active communist when he was 32 not a young man in my estimation more like middle aged. The author of the book is considered a “good conservative.”

H2O your political philosophy sprang whole cloth from the mind of this communist intellectual. America has been in a downward spiral since the commie/conservatives took power. The national debt went straight up and the middle class standard went straight downward but there was a bright spot the ungodly greedy’ income went up over 6 times and after that happened the commie/conservatives cut the ungodly greedy’ taxes again and again. The commie/conservatives knew they were destroying America, they can read the statistic like everyone else, but they didn’t care as long as ungodly greedy kept bigger and bigger bribes coming.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Mon 4 Mar, 2013 07:28 am
Poor Zar is stuck in the past and stuck on stupid.

It's time to simplify the tax code and The FairTax Plan is the best way to do it.
Zardoz
 
  1  
Tue 5 Mar, 2013 06:33 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O, “Those who don’t learn from history are condemned to repeat.” The most important thing people need to know about the Modern Conservative Movement was that its founding fathers were “radical revolutionaries who were dedicated to the overthrow of the United States government.” And in a matter of speaking in 1980 the communists finally succeeded in overthrowing the American government. Once Reagan and the commie/conservatives took power they began dissembling the government. The National Debt, primarily made up of debt incurred to fight and finance our allies during WWII was on track to be paid off in the year 2000 until Reagan cut the taxes on the ungodly greedy by 60%. Every other president since WWII had paid down the National Debt. Reagan did not continue his predecessor’s practice of paying down the national Reagan ran the National debt up by 30%. Reagan ran the country on credit and Baby Bush did the same.

Regan believed that the country could cut the taxes on the ungodly by 60% and run the country on credit. We have all seen people that live on credit cards it makes life better in the short term but much worse in the long term. H2O guess at what point we are now. Because Reagan did not continue to pay the National Debt off we now have to pay 40% more in taxes to pay interest on the Reagan/Bush debt. If Reagan and Bush had not been elected taxes could have been cut for all by exempting the first $30,000 of income from income taxes instead of giving millions in tax cuts to billionaires and a few dollars to the middle class.

H2O if you are so against taxes why would you want to pay more in taxes in a year than your income. I don’t believe there is one person in America that wants to pay more than a 100% of their income in taxes, well maybe one. Do you still not understand that if you made one purchase under the so-called Fair Tax that the taxes on that purchase would be more than your income? If you bought a house for a $150,000 like my daughter recently bought, your tax would be $45,000 and that is more than the yearly median income in America.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Tue 5 Mar, 2013 07:24 am
@Zardoz,


Zar, you offer no plausible alternative to the status quo.

The FairTax Plan is the most studied and best alternative to what we currently have.

Zar, why are you so against people paying their fair share of tax?
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Tue 5 Mar, 2013 12:36 pm


A new congressional report says tax receipts on pace to hit record $2.7T
this year, but Obama continues to say people aren't paying their fair share.

Obama want's to raise taxes on every American while protecting the rich political class.

More reason to simplify the tax code by replacing it with The FairTax Plan.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  2  
Wed 6 Mar, 2013 06:34 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O, I really don’t think paying a 150% of my income in taxes is a viable alternative to paying 9% of my income in income tax now and of course if I pay 150% of my income taxes I have to borrow the money and pay interest. This is an ideal situation for the ungodly greedy that will only pay .03% of their income in taxes under the “Fair Tax” they will loan the money they save on taxes out at 30% to the middle class to pay their taxes.

Our present income tax system worked until the Reagan and commie/conservatives came to power and slashed the income tax on the ungodly greedy by 60%. For 35 years America paid down the huge WWII debt and expanded the middle class and improved the standard of living for the vast majority of Americans. When Reagan cut the taxes on the ungodly greedy by 60% the standard of living for the top 1/100 of 1% went multiple times but the vast majority of Americans saw their standard of living fall radically. We now have Lottery winner economics where the ungodly greedy bribe the politicians to give them more and more each year and they will not stop until they have it all.

The intend purpose of the income tax was to tax “excess wealth” and only “excess wealth” only incomes over $80,000 in today’s dollars paid income tax. There were no deductions. The commie/conservatives constantly want to “widen the base” which means to make more of the poor pay and those on social security. People pay income tax on the money they paid into social security and are taxed the second time when the already taxed money that they paid in 40 years ago is returned to them. I will have to pay tax on $4,000 of my wives social security this year. The commie/conservatives want to make sure every dollar of social security is taxed twice. The so-called “Fair Tax” would put a 30% tax on every dollar of social security. While social security is double taxed Romney multi-million pension from Bain Capital is cut in half and called “deferred interest.”

The country has to start referring to the income tax as the tax on “excess wealth” until every American realizes this was a tax levied on “excess wealth” and only “excess wealth.” Stop all deductions and exempt the first $30,000 in income for everyone. Bill Gates would get the first $30,000 in income tax free as would Warren Buffet and all other Americans. Everyone is treated fairly this way if someone wins the lottery they would pay taxes on any amount over $30,000. Once the deferred interest deduction was gone the hedge fund manager making $5 billion would see his taxes more than double. The hedge fund manager makes his living swindling pension funds and others he should at least pay the proper amount of income tax.

The tax code has to be simplified and the special dispensations to the ungodly greedy must be stopped. It is a travesty that the commie/conservatives double tax social security money that was already taxed should be returned tax free. The middle class is double taxed while the ungodly greedy tax is cut in half. This has to stop.

The most studied is the current income tax. Do you really believe a 150% of your income is a “Fair Tax?”
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Wed 6 Mar, 2013 08:37 am

Rolling Eyes Z, it's very clear that you have not read The FairTax Plan
It's also clear that you do not know what you are talking about.

I'm done with you.

tenderfoot
 
  1  
Wed 6 Mar, 2013 11:42 pm
@H2O MAN,
Looks like the squirts potty is full.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Thu 7 Mar, 2013 03:36 am
@tenderfoot,
Yep, just another stupid troll
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  2  
Thu 7 Mar, 2013 06:32 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O I read that book from cover to cover including the endnotes. This was the only book I ever saw that would use a whole page to put a one line endnote on. This was done no doubt to defraud the public and make it appear that it was a book instead of a pamphlet. I downloaded the electronics versions and many of the short comings I pointed out were in fact pointed out by the authors themselves. The short comings are acceptable to authors because they are rich and would see their taxes go down by a factor of 10. The authors are quite candid and tell you the amount of taxes collected under the so called “Fair Tax” will remain the same. The rate of the “Fair Tax” was deliberately set to bring in the same amount of taxes. So when the hedge fund manager saves $748 million in taxes the middle class will see their taxes increased to make up for the loss. The “Fair Tax” would replace our progressive tax system with most extremely regressive tax system ever designed. The so called “Fair Tax” was done with one purpose in mind and that purpose is to effectively eliminate most of the tax on the ungodly greedy.

The ungodly greedy authors set out to design tax system that would radically reduce the taxes they pay, they know somebody else will have to pay the taxes they don’t pay because the “Fair Tax” is revenue neutral and they don’t care who pays the taxes on their ungodly greedy incomes just so they don’t. If their children or grandchildren must may much higher taxes so be it. If those on social security have to pay double tax that’s fair as long as the ungodly greedy get by with paying only .03% percent taxes. If the young adults have to pay 150% of their income in taxes that’s fair as long as greedy old rich men only have to pay .03%.
Don’t know what I am talking about? Even you can do basic math I hope. If you purchase a $150,000 house under the Fair Tax it will cost you $45,000 in taxes. The math is simple 30% of $150,000 is $45,000 and the Fair Tax is 30% not 23%. When you buy something that costs $100 dollars the taxes is $23 but the cost of product is only $77. When 23 is divided by 77 the true percentage of tax is 29.87%. The math does not change.

H2O you never answered whether you wasted your money on a copy of the book and read it. If you had you would know what I posted was correct.

Notice that one thing is exempt from the “Fair Tax” food, shelter, energy, medicine and medical care, all the necessities are taxed at 30% but the purchase of stock is tax free. The ungodly greedy own 90% of the stock. Stock is not a necessity but it is how the ungodly greedy make their money. If someone must pay 30% tax on medicine to keep them alive why shouldn’t the ungodly greedy pay the “Fair Tax” on their stock purchases. Why because if you tax what the ungodly buy they would have to pay the 30% “Fair Tax.”
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Thu 7 Mar, 2013 06:38 am
@Zardoz,
Zardoz wrote:

H2O I read that book from cover to cover including the endnotes.


Great! Now read this one: 'Answering the Critics'
It should address most, if not all of your concerns.

http://wvfairtax.org/images/FairTaxTruthBook.jpg
Zardoz
 
  1  
Fri 8 Mar, 2013 06:33 am
@H2O MAN,
H2O that is the book that I have already read, chapter 10 is devoted to answering the critics. Just because a conman can come up with an answer does not make it the truth. In the thousands of books I have read I never encountered so many half-truths, distortions, and outright lies as in “The Fair Tax.”

It is interesting to note that the authors are all front men and maybe far worse off if the “Fair Tax.” The ungodly greedy who are responsible for pushing this scam are staying in the shadows. The ungodly greedy will get 99.9% of the benefit of thee “Fair Tax” while many members of the middle class will see their taxes exceed their yearly income.

When I was a small child my mother would take me and my sister shopping with her downtown. The last stop was always the 5&10 cent store. We would get to go to basement and each of us would get to pick out an inexpensive toy. I would select a toy and then try to convince my sister to pick out my second choice instead of something she had selected. She was a couple years younger and easy to convince. I out grew taking advantage of her when I was a child. For the last 30 years the ungodly greedy have been doing exactly the same thing. Cutting the taxes on themselves and manipulating the middle class to believe that is what they want. The “Fair Tax” is the latest in a long series of tax cuts for the ungodly greedy starting with a 20% tax cut by Kennedy. The taxes on the ungodly greedy taxes have been cut from 93% to the current 39% under the “Fair Tax” they would be less than 1%. It does not take genius to realize who is going to pay the ungodly greedy share of the taxes.
 

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