11
   

Why There Cannot Be Peace Between Israel and the Palestinians

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 01:24 pm
I've had JTT on Ignore for a long time, and usually forget about him. Every now and then I see a quote from one of his typically wierd, neurotic posts in someone else's post here. I am then reminded of his sordid existence. It's a bit like inadvertantly stepping on a cockroach.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 01:40 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Hitler killed people who were not doing any harm to anyone.


In this, the USA and Hitler are twins. The US has been killing innocent people since its beginnings.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 02:50 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Jon Stewart: Truman's a War Criminal for Bombing Hiroshima


Meh. How many war crimes did Japan get away with during the war?

It was time to end the war and make them surrender.



Quote:
Sunday 5 August 2012
Phil Strongman: Hiroshima is a war crime that haunts my family, 67 years on


Why in the world would anyone be haunted by that?

As I said, it was time to end the war and make them surrender.



Quote:
The US intentionally prolonged the war for the sole purpose of testing the atomic bomb on real cities


Nope. The war was prolonged by Japan. It was Japan who was refusing to surrender.

It is unlikely that the reason that Japan prolonged the war was for testing the A-bomb on real cities, but you'll have to ask them why they refused to surrender earlier.



Quote:
Apologists for these events have used two arguments. These attacks were necessary because Japan wouldn't surrender without them, and because a land invasion against Japan's disciplined troops would have caused 300,000 US casualties or more. The bombing also kept the Soviets out of Japan and helped speed the end of the war.


Actually, they were thinking more along the lines of 300,000 American DEATHS. "Casualties" would have been in the millions had we needed to invade and fight one huge Okinawa campaign across the entire length of Honshu.



Quote:
No one objected to the A-Bomb's use in 1945, we are told. No one who knew the score amongst the military high-ups. There was no alternative.

But the argument that no one in the know objected is a fallacy. General Eisenhower opposed it, "Japan was already defeated… dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary."


Context is important. Ike only voiced his opposition in a private conversation with a single person (his boss, Secretary of War Stimson).

This conversation only happened a few days before Hiroshima, when it would have been too late to bring things to a halt even if Ike had been persuasive. The final orders to drop the bombs had already been sent to the field, and Truman had left Potsdam and was on his way back to Washington. He might not have set sail yet (not sure), but it would have required something pretty earthshattering to recall him back to Potsdam.

Stimson responded to Ike's opposition by telling Ike that he didn't know what he was talking about. And then neither Stimson nor Ike spoke to anyone else about Ike's objections for the duration of the war.

So, yes, Ike objected. But there was hardly a huge upswell of opposition from the military brass.



Quote:
The Pacific Fleet commander Admiral Nimitz agreed: "The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in their defeat."


Nimitz only said that after the fact. He voiced no objection to dropping the bombs before they were dropped.

In fact, Nimitz is one of the four military leaders who reacted to Nagasaki by pushing Washington to drop the next bomb on Tokyo, for a greater impact on the Japanese decision makers (the others were Spaatz, LeMay, and Twining).

It might also be noted that Nimitz's after-the-fact comment is inaccurate. The first time Japan sued for peace was on August 10. That was after both A-bombs.



Quote:
Admiral Leahy, President Truman's Chief of Staff, concurred: the atomic attacks were "of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already ready to surrender…"


Another after-the-fact statement. Leahy voiced no objection to dropping the bombs before they were dropped.

The only thing Leahy had to say about the A-bombs before they were dropped, is: "I'm an expert in explosives, and I can assure you these things will never work."

If Japan was "already ready to surrender", it was pretty foolish of them to needlessly wait until they were nuked twice before they did surrender.



Quote:
By the spring of 1945 Japan was faltering. Germany surrendered in May and since April US aircraft had roamed almost at will over Japan. Heavy bombing raids using dozens of B-29s were met with token resistance, and the firebombing of Tokyo had not been seriously opposed. A sea blockade had decimated imports.

During this time Japan put out peace feelers: on 25 July Japan tried to get envoys to Russia, carrying Imperial letters which read, in part: "His Majesty… mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice of the peoples… desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But as long as England and the US insist upon unconditional surrender the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on… for the honour and existence of the Motherland …"


Japan did not tell us the purpose of their secret envoy to the Soviets, but we guessed that they were probably trying to get the Soviets to help them end the war in a draw so they would not have to surrender.

That guess was correct. The purpose of Japan's secret envoy to the Soviets was indeed an attempt to enlist Soviet aid in ending the war in a draw so that Japan would not have to surrender.

Needless to say, we would not have been interested, even if this "let's call off the war" proposal had been presented to us (it wasn't).

The only way for Japan to end the war was by surrendering.



Quote:
These feelers were rebuffed by the US demand for unconditional surrender.


No. They were rebuffed by the Soviets. The US did not receive those contacts, and had nothing to do with them.

It is not entirely accurate though to say they were rebuffed, even by the Soviets. All the Soviets did was keep saying "We're too busy to see you today, please try back again tomorrow."

Furthermore, the US backed away from unconditional surrender when we issued the Potsdam Proclamation (which was an offer of generous surrender conditions).



Quote:
But this was unacceptable to Japan, for it could mean that Hirohito –seen as semi-divine – could be put on trial.


Actually, the reason surrender was unacceptable to Japan was the fact that they were trying to end the war in a draw instead of surrendering.



Quote:
In mid-1945 The Washington Post kept asking why Truman was demanding unconditional surrender while granting that a condition could swiftly end hostilities.


They must have looked really foolish, given the fact that Japan was not willing to even surrender conditionally at the time.

I am skeptical that they would have printed something so silly.



Quote:
the United States News confirmed, days after Hiroshima, that "competent testimony exists to prove that Japan was seeking to surrender many weeks before the atomic bomb…"


The first time Japan sought surrender was August 10, the day after Nagasaki.



Quote:
And, of course, post-Nagasaki, the US did grant the condition that the Emperor be left alone. So if America could agree to this in August, why not in July or even June? Why not end the war earlier?


First, the condition in question was NOT that the Emperor be "left alone". Japan was demanding that Hirohito retain unlimited dictatorial power as Japan's living deity.

Second, the US did NOT grant that condition. We replied by telling them that Hirohito would be subordinate to MacArthur.

Third, Japan was not willing to surrender before August 10. And August 10 was the first time they asked us to guarantee Hirohito's unlimited dictatorial power. We did not grant that condition "earlier" (leaving aside the fact that we weren't willing to grant it ever) because we did not possess a time machine.



Quote:
US stubbornness only makes sense if it's seen for what it really is: an excuse to delay peace long enough to test the bomb on real cities. Which is why previous heavy bombing raids had always spared the first atomic targets: Hiroshima, Kokura, Niigata and Kyoto.


What that "US stubbornness" really is, is a work of fiction.

It was Japan who was refusing to surrender. Any delay was due to Japanese stubbornness.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 03:01 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I've had JTT on Ignore for a long time, and usually forget about him. Every now and then I see a quote from one of his typically wierd, neurotic posts in someone else's post here. I am then reminded of his sordid existence. It's a bit like inadvertantly stepping on a cockroach.


I think JTT's heart is in the right place. He really believes that the US does the terrible things he accuses us of.

He's wrong, of course, but he does honestly hold those beliefs.

I just wish he would tone down the gross name-calling.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 03:38 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
How many war crimes did Japan get away with during the war?


The ones where the US was shown to have done the same or worse. Those situations, the hypocritical US avoided like the plague. The US took all the worst of the worst from the Nazis and the Japanese and brought them into the fold of the US, which time has shown, was a perfect fit - a marriage of two evils.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 03:43 pm
@georgeob1,
Hello, Gob. How's the old flyboy? Do you miss napalming villages? Did you ever get to obliterate any villages in Cambodia or Laos?

It's pretty silly of you, a guy who volunteered more than once to bomb the **** out of innocent Vietnamese, to be calling others cockroaches.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 04:08 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
think JTT's heart is in the right place. He really believes that the US does the terrible things he accuses us of.
\

I to have him or her on ignore as the heart might be in the right place but the mind is in never never land.
Ragman
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 04:19 pm
@BillRM,
Where's the irony glyph?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 04:32 pm
@reasoning logic,
Good video, RL.

"What has changed has been the continued failure of the so-called US peace process."

US + peace process is an oxymoron. The US doesn't do peace. The US does bombing, torture, rape, murder, napalming innocents, carpet bombing cities towns and villages, spreading their own original WMDs all over others countrysides, murdering children, destroying other countries infrastructures, destroying other countries political systems, ... .

You name it and if it's evil, bad, destructive the US can help out.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 04:50 pm
@reasoning logic,
Further to this fantastic video, RL, is this video.


U.S. Pulls All Funding For UNESCO After Sweeping Vote to Support Palestinian Membership

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8575hjRKEw

All of it is excellent but at about 6:23 a reporter actually has the balls to demand more than the usual flow of tripe from an Obama flunky.

He strips her and the US naked. You've really gotta wonder how this flimsy veneer of lies has lasted for so long.

Top notch propagandists, I guess. Amazing what a relentless dribble of lies can do.




reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:14 pm
@JTT,
Great video JTT. thank you for sharing. You seem to be caught up emotionally in this topic and others just as I am and I think that you have a very good reason to be but my question to you is, "Do you think that it helps your argument when you use ad hominem or gestures like semen slurper and so forth or do you think that it could possibly make others not pay attention to what you have to share?
I do realize that there is little hope for some people but I do wonder if we approached them differently if we may have a better chance of them considering what we have to share.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:18 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Good video, RL.

"What has changed has been the continued failure of the so-called US peace process."


I still don't do video. Though if I can't find a way to install WOW on my new hard drive without broadband, I might be looking into building a 64-foot tower so I can try to get broadband-light. Lack of WOW is NOT good for my sanity.

Anyway, yes, the peace process has been a failure since the Palestinians toppled negotiations in 2000.

But there was still hope, no matter how forlorn.

Now that the UN has abrogated the Oslo Accords, the peace process is just plain done for good.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:19 pm
@Ragman,
Where's the honesty, Ragman? While you folks make jokes there are millions who have suffered, continue to suffer because of your criminal governments.

"At what cost—because most of those 88 per cent are thoroughly decent and humane people—in Iraqi lives?"


DN!!!!! 'The US Has Gone Mad,' John le Carré - Democracy Now Amy Goodman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um2Cb7oSVU0


Quote:

"The United States of America Has Gone Mad"

By John le Carré

AMY GOODMAN: British novelist John le Carré. I spoke to him in London on Sunday. While he’s famous for his spy novels, he wrote a widely read antiwar essay in 2003 just before the US invasion of Iraq. It’s called "The United States of America Has Gone Mad." This is an excerpt.


JOHN LE CARRÉ: America has entered one of its periods of historical madness, but this is the worst I can remember: worse than McCarthyism, worse than the Bay of Pigs and in the long term potentially more disastrous than the Vietnam War.


The reaction to 9/11 is beyond anything Osama bin Laden could have hoped for in his nastiest dreams. As in McCarthy times, the freedoms that have made America the envy of the world are being systematically eroded. The combination of compliant US media and vested corporate interests is once more ensuring that a debate that should be ringing out in every town square is confined to the loftier columns of the East Coast press.


The imminent war was planned years before bin Laden struck, but it was he who made it possible. Without bin Laden, the Bush junta would still be trying to explain such tricky matters as how it came to be elected in the first place; Enron; its shameless favouring of the already-too-rich; its reckless disregard for the world’s poor, the ecology and a raft of unilaterally abrogated international treaties. They might also have to be telling us why they support Israel in its continuing disregard for UN resolutions.


But bin Laden conveniently swept all that under the carpet. The Bushies are riding high. Now 88 per cent of Americans want the war, we are told. The US defence budget has been raised by another $60 billion to around $360 billion. A splendid new generation of nuclear weapons is in the pipeline, so we can all breathe easy. Quite what war 88 per cent of Americans think they are supporting is a lot less clear. A war for how long, please? At what cost in American lives? At what cost to the American taxpayer’s pocket? At what cost—because most of those 88 per cent are thoroughly decent and humane people—in Iraqi lives?


How Bush and his junta succeeded in deflecting America’s anger from bin Laden to Saddam Hussein is one of the great public relations conjuring tricks of history. But they swung it. A recent poll tells us that one in two Americans now believe Saddam was responsible for the attack on the World Trade Centre. But the American public is not merely being misled. It is being browbeaten and kept in a state of ignorance and fear. The carefully orchestrated neurosis should carry Bush and his fellow conspirators nicely into the next election.


Those who are not with Mr Bush are against him. Worse, they are with the enemy. Which is odd, because I’m dead against Bush, but I would love to see Saddam’s downfall—just not on Bush’s terms and not by his methods. And not under the banner of such outrageous hypocrisy.

...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article26427.htm
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:20 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
U.S. Pulls All Funding For UNESCO After Sweeping Vote to Support Palestinian Membership


Yep. And the UN is in line for another big funding cut now, after this latest outrage.
RST
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:21 pm
@reasoning logic,
Not with the likes of Oralboy and BillRM. They fail to see the obvious. One is a scum sucking bottom feeder and the other is a "semen slurper."
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:25 pm
@RST,
RST wrote:
Not with the likes of Oralboy and BillRM. They fail to see the obvious. One is a scum sucking bottom feeder and the other is a "semen slurper."


You engage in name-calling because you are too stupid to come up with anything intelligent.
0 Replies
 
RST
 
  3  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:26 pm
@oralloy,
What's actually outrageous is United States cutting funding to the U.N. education and science agency UNESCO. It's counterproductive to America, you dumb twit. Looking at it as if it's a good thing.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:37 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
"Do you think that it helps your argument when you use addhomanems or gestures like semen slurper and so forth or do you think that it could possibly make others not pay attention to what you have to share?


My apologies to those who slurp semen in the human, loving sense for associating them with as evil a creature as Oralboy.

Oralboy, as a semen slurper, is one of those who ingests, and dribbles out, the most vile of lies/propaganda from one of the most vile groups of people on the planet, those various US governments who have responsible for the deaths of millions.

It's truly amazing, really, that no one discusses these very recent, horrendous crimes that have been committed against the people of Iraq and Afghanistan. And these same despicable acts are being perpetrated upon others in countries around the globe.

There is a constant nattering from the US about terrorism, all the while, the US's own terrorist group, the CIA, operates with near impunity around the globe.

Will these semen slurpers ever honor the truth? Not likely, RL. Even the "honest" folks at A2K won't do that.

Considering what the US has done to the people of the world, I don't think that the truth will hurt any of these "people". Nor do I think that they need get the free pass that they have, for far too long, enjoyed.

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:40 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I still don't do video.


Don't feel bad, Oralboy. You don't do facts or the truth.

You are just a profligate doer of Uncle Sam's propaganda.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Dec, 2012 05:47 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
My apologies to those who slurp semen in the human, loving sense for associating them with as evil a creature as Oralboy.


JTT My own mother who I dearly love is caught up in the lies that have been fed to her though the propaganda machine but yet I do know her to be a loving person but yet I think she has a bit of hate in her because of what she has been taught as being the truth. We all get reality wrong to one degree or another but my question to you is "what harm is there in being kind to those that we disagree with?

PS That last video you shared was awakening. Thank you. Smile
 

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