roger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 03:29 pm
@JPB,
I love it, J. A deal that can be defined as either a cut or an increase, depending on the wording. Then there are the verbal gymnastics that let you deny there's a tax increase; just elimination of deductions.

Sometimes, I just feel like giving up.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 03:34 pm
@roger,
They have to make sure they don't violate their pledge to Grover. One of the Tea Party groups came out today and said they would Primary any Republican who votes for Plan B.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 03:39 pm
@roger,
I feel the same, but there's nothing to "give up." We gotta live with our broken government, because Americans voted them in. Mr. Green Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 03:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Here's a link to The Hill's Whip Count for tomorrow's Plan B vote. Boehner can lose 24 Rs if no Ds vote yes. So far he's at 11 no and leaning no votes.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/273817-whip-count-house-lawmakers-positions-on-gop-plan-b-fiscal-cliff-bill
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 04:03 pm
@JPB,
Thanks. Still up in the air. Not expecting much from either party.

They'd better enjoy their day in the sun, because what they're doing is not popular with the majority of Americans.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 04:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Josh Barro (Bloomberg) on Plan B

Quote:
As the cliff negotiations started, Republicans were talking up base broadening as a way to raise a little revenue without hurting the economy. Plan B is essentially the opposite approach: a little more revenue, with as little economic efficiency as possible.

The proposal is also frustrating because it takes President Obama's already-silly red line about who can be asked to pay more taxes and moves it even higher. At this rate, the ever-shrinking cohort of Americans who are rich enough to be expected to pay more taxes may be reduced within a few years to just Warren Buffett personally.

Obviously Republicans needed to meet the president in the middle somewhere. I would have rather seen them push for a deal that went to a top rate somewhere above 35 and below 39.6, and between 15 and 20 on capital gains.

But if Republicans have determined they must agree to the same top rates the president wants, they might as well cave on the $250,000 threshold too, take the extra revenue to further reduce the budget deficit and save their political capital for tax reforms that might actually grow the economy.More
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 05:07 pm
@JPB,
I don't expect Obama to stick to his $250k; he's going to bend before Jan 1st.

What's also comical is that the republicans are saying the increased taxes for the wealthy will only fund six weeks of the feds budget; never mind that gaining six weeks increments for ten years almost eliminates the deficit.

Without the agreement, all that deficit gets transferred to our children.


JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 05:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is an interesting read on the origins of the Bush tax cuts and how they were supposed to end if the economy lagged and/or the budget surpluses disappeared.

Quote:
The perceived danger was — believe it or not — that there would be no national debt left.

Greenspan, however, offered caveats and warnings that were largely ignored by Congress. In fact, he said that any tax cuts should have triggers that would halt them “if specified targets for the budget surplus and federal debt were not satisfied.”

In other words, the tax cuts would have been terminated or reduced, depending on the nation’s economic circumstances — precisely the tactic Republicans said was a non-starter in the 2011 debt-ceiling debate.History Lesson
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 05:27 pm
@JPB,
@LukeRussert Plan B changed so Boehner can get the votes, now will include separate vote on a deficit reduction and sequester replacement bill."

no details yet
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 05:59 pm
@JPB,
The republicans can't be trusted on anything; they've been filibustering so much legislation that would have helped our country, they're a danger to our country.

Why people continue to vote them back into office is one of the biggest mysteries of our times. Party politics is like religion; once you commit, there's no turning back.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 06:12 pm
@cicerone imposter,

The democrats can't be trusted on anything; republicans should tell the left to go to hell and walk out.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 19 Dec, 2012 06:15 pm
@H2O MAN,
Hey, waterboy, how can't the democrats be trusted?

The GOP congress since 2009 has the highest filibusters of all time, and passed the least amount of legislation!

At the very least, at least tell us how the democrats can't be trusted? A statement without proof is bull ****! You know that, right? naw....

There's no c........
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 07:52 am
@JPB,
It looks like Plan B has morphed into nearly the same non-starter kitchen sink bill the House passed back in May.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 08:07 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

Here's how it should play out:

Obama tells congress: "it's your problem, you created it, you fix it." GOP and Democratic congressional leaders meet to hammer out a compromise but fail miserably as a result of GOP intransigence over tax increases. Jan. 1 comes and goes with no agreement, so the Bush tax cuts expire and the sequester spending cuts go into effect. The business community lets Republican leaders know that it's time to stop playing games. Obama steps in at that point, using the bully pulpit of the presidency to shame both sides into an agreement. Congress passes a bill that includes some modest spending cuts in social programs and sets the top marginal rate at somewhere between the Bush rate (35%) and the reinstated Clinton rate (39.6%), which allows GOP house and senate members to say that they didn't violate the Norquist pledge because they technically didn't vote to raise taxes.

Here's how it will play out:

Obama will take the lead in trying to reach a "grand bargain" on spending cuts, taxes, and the debt ceiling. GOP congressional leaders refuse to entertain any tax increases, but will grudgingly agree to the closure of some tax "loopholes" and a "broadening of the tax base" (i.e. taxing more poor people). Obama, as usual, caves in to Republican intransigence and pushes for a deal that includes substantial cuts to social services and no cuts of any consequence to the military, while the Republicans will graciously permit the government to keep borrowing for another six months. Then GOP hardliners will accuse Obama of being a socialist and a job-killer. Boehner will scuttle backwards like an orange crustacean and renounce the entire deal, just as he did in 2011, and the entire nation will fall off the fiscal cliff. Six months later, Obama and congress agree to a one-time rebate of $500 to each taxpayer that will please Republicans because it's like a tax cut and will appeal to Democrats because it's like a stimulus bill.


Supposedly we need a deal by Sunday in order to avoid "The Cliff". Boehner appears to be scuttling.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 10:44 am
@JPB,
All while the GOP plays chicken with the fiscal cliff, they're harming the income of workers and tax revenues at all levels. Their tree is now shrunk into a bush, and they still can't see the harm they've done to our fragile economy.

The second scenario from joe's dual outcomes is what I expect to happen, and Obama is going to be struggling for the next four years trying to get anything done. No backbone, no smarts.

He's intelligent? Give me a ****'n break! He still believes he can deal with the GOP.

If he'd have stuck to his "no deal" dictum, he wouldn't be having all these problems now.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 11:51 am
@cicerone imposter,
An interesting analysis of the upside and downside of Boehner's Plan B.

Quote:
If the vote on the so-called “Plan B”, which would extend the tax rates on everyone but those earning more than $1 million a year, fails — and even the most optimistic Republicans acknowledge that it’s going to be close — it will be a massive blow to Boehner’s strength as Speaker. (The same goes, by the way, if Boehner can’t bring the bill to the floor for a vote, which should be interpreted as a sign that he doesn’t have enough “yes’s” to pass it.)

A failure to pass “Plan B” would not only drastically weaken Boehner’s strength within his own party but it would also significantly erode his bargaining position with President Obama. If on Wednesday you tell the President publicly that “he can call on Senate Democrats to pass that bill or he can be responsible for the largest tax increase in American history” and on Thursday you can’t pass the bill, it doesn’t take a political genius to understand that Boehner would lose any leverage he has in the cliff talks if “Plan B” goes down.

What’s far less clear — at least to us — is what the upside of the “Plan B” gamble is for Boehner. There is no chance that the Senate even takes up “Plan B” even if Boehner gets it through the House later today. So, why is he doing it?

According to Boehner allies, the point is that House Republicans are trying to govern, to find a plan that can actually make it through their chamber and, therefore, wind up as a law. (Of course, if the Senate and President Obama do nothing with it, “Plan B” will never become law.)

The other stated “win” for Boehner is to simultaneously see if passing “Plan B” wrings any more concessions from President Obama on his previously-stated willingness to exempt earners making $400,000 or less while also retaining some leverage as regards the raising of the debt ceiling, which is expected to need to be raised by late February.

“The political upside for Boehner is that he will have positioned Republicans to negotiate on all of the very serious threats to the economy — the debt limit, entitlement reform, tax reform, sequester — with the tax increase issue off the table,” explained one Boehner backer. “The White House would be forced to deal with those issue without the cover excuse they keep falling back on, which is raising taxes on upper incomes.”

Less publicly stated but not less important is that by passing “Plan B”, Boehner is showing his Members his willingness to fight for them — even if he ultimately cuts some sort of deal with the president that comes up short of the $1 million and above exemption. Boehner must have it appear as though he did absolutely everything possible to get the deal his House Republicans want before he settles (if he settles) with Obama. Conceding early is, from an optics standpoint, a disaster for him.

The simple truth — that smart Republicans know but can’t say — is that Boehner has very little leverage in all of this. President Obama has just been re-elected and has some of his highest job approval ratings in years. Republicans are in the midst of an identity crisis, roaming (mostly) leaderless through the political desert with a badly damaged brand. Polling suggests that Republicans would likely lose the blame game if the country went off the cliff. Washington Post
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 01:25 pm
@JPB,
Obama is holding all the high cards, and doesn't need to do anything to placate the GOP.

But, the big $64 thousand dollar q is whether he'll continue to "negotiate."

0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:21 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

Here's a link to The Hill's Whip Count for tomorrow's Plan B vote. Boehner can lose 24 Rs if no Ds vote yes. So far he's at 11 no and leaning no votes.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/273817-whip-count-house-lawmakers-positions-on-gop-plan-b-fiscal-cliff-bill


It ain't over 'til it's over but The Hill Whip count is up to 25 firm/leaning R no's. Looks like they'll need to get some help from the Dems. Earlier talk was that up to 3 D's with possible yes votes.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 05:53 pm
@JPB,
Plan B votes broken up into parts - 217 (or simple majority if all members don't vote) needed to pass

Spending cut piece passed 215-209
Sequester Replacement Act passed 218-199
Millionaire Tax increase coming up...

edit: Obama issues formal veto threat on sequester replacement bill
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Dec, 2012 06:15 pm
@JPB,
@BobCusack House unexpectedly goes into recess instead of starting debate on the bill...more time for whipping.
4 minutes ago · reply · retweet · favorite

Looks like Boehner is worried about getting 217 Rs to vote for a tax increase on millionaires.
 

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