Viability of foreverness

@oralloy,

Anyway are you able to entertain the issue beyond the immediate scope of matter itself ? Do you believe that eventually there will be a state of nothingness ? If so why ? And what is the meaning of nothingness in your "languaging" ? So far you have provided common knowledge information on what will happen to matter in the distant future but you have been far from satisfying the wider scope of the question...I am just wondering whether that reports lack of knowledge or courage...

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@JLNobody,

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I am a skeptic regarding our big concepts.......this is seen in the fact that we cannot imagine existence stopping, not going on "forever.” ........

Well put J\L
But we have to work with what we’ve got available

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Anyway are you able to entertain the issue beyond the immediate scope of matter itself ?

There is no need. The "end of matter" effectively addresses the question of whether events will endlessly repeat themselves down the axis of time.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Do you believe that eventually there will be a state of nothingness ? If so why ?

Whether it is truly "nothing" is debatable. There will be photons and electrons and a few other stray particles. Lots of virtual particles as well.

The universe will certainly feel like one vast empty void however.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

So far you have provided common knowledge information on what will happen to matter in the distant future but you have been far from satisfying the wider scope of the question...

No, addressing the issue of matter, also addresses the issue of endless repetition.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I am just wondering whether that reports lack of knowledge or courage...

It reports my perception that I have fully addressed the question.

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@Krumple,

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I honestly don't see how you go from multi-verse or multiple realities on top of each other with slight variances to foreverness.

Oh I don’t Krump, and forgive me if I wasn’t clear. First I don’t maintain "multiple realities on top of each other”, which intuitionally just sticks in the craw. And I don’t see any possible variations of forever

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(not even sure what foreverness even is)

To the Average Clod (me) it means no beginning nor end. However I’ll have to admit that some consider forever as having a beginning but no end or vv; but again these two alternatives seem far more contradictory, controversial, paradoxical than my simple assertion

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If there are multiple realities

As that expression can be interpreted in several different ways I’m not quite sure how to respond. Did you mean simultaneous or serial realities and if simultaneous did you mean occupying the same “space” or scattered around a big universe

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with slight variances I don't see the point of them.

I don’t either. Not only slight variances but also exact replicas, an infinite number of each, and that’s what’s so troubling to the Intuition

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Since we only experience one of them and not all of them then it is meaningless.

I don’t agree that it’s meaningless to entertain the idea of an infinite Universe or foreverness which so challenge the Intuition thus inviting discussion (such as this one)

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So what if there is an alternate reality where you are the president and pigs fly and elephants are american household pets?

I don’t call it alternate but simultaneous or sequential. Also, assuming the rules don’t change from one to the next I dismiss any versions that are impossible

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Where does foreverness come into it?

Foreverness implies, as I had explained earlier, the possibility of sequential Universes in which chance insists an occasional repetition, however long the interval between; which in turn suggests “eventually” an infinite number of each, very troubling to the Intuition.

However I haven’t solved the problem by any means since the idea of a beginning is also full of difficulties. Not so much for an end but still a very awkward idea

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Just because there can be an infinite amount of possibilities it doesn't mean all of them are endless.

Krump forgive me again if I wasn’t perfectly clear, there aren’t. There are a finite number of possibilities (since obviously the impossible can’t happen), especially if the Entire Megillah proves digital--but in an infinite Universe there must be an infinite number of each one simultaneously

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You still have the laws of physics to deal with and the expansion rate of the universe.

It’s hard to feature an infinite Universe expanding. I was assuming one limitless with matter everywhere. However even if it’s finite, given forever you’d still eventually have an infinite number of every possible Universe but of course not simultaneously

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If the universe expansion continues to accelerate eventually.......Nothing would be left except expanding space.

Very interesting indeed Krump though hard to imagine. Seems so bleak, so random, so pointless, so hopeless

But could be I suppose

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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1- But who said knows X or Y for certain eh ? you are just dodging the issue at hand Frank, nothing more...still don't get what you meant to ask there other then entertaining the obvious...

I do not dodge issues, Fil. In any case, I do not even understand what you are asking here...or what you are asserting.

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2 - Came from somewhere, so what ? eventually you get stuck with IS HERE or are you up for an infinite regress debate, is that it ? matter can even come out of energy in space Frank...so what ? Did you have a point to make, or any good reason to suggest other opinion ? I would be glad to hear it if you have one...

If you are asking if I think there may be mysteries about the REALITY...I MOST ASSUREDLY AM SAYING THAT.

You seem to think you know what the REALITY is. I do not...and I am guessing you do not either.

If you do, I am wrong. If you know what the REALITY of existence is...then I am wrong.

What can I tell ya. I've been wrong before and probably will be again.

Tell us how you know the REALITY of existence. It sounds like an interesting story.

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@oralloy,

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By noting the fact that there haven't been any sightings of fresh stellar fuel being created out of nothingness.

There have been absolutely no sightings of sentient beings on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol. Are you going to say that is evidence that there are no sentient beings on any of those planets?

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The only fuel the stars have to burn, is what already exists for them to burn.

How the hell do you know that? Why do you keep making statements like that?

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By noting the fact that there is only a finite amount of fuel for stars.

A finite supply, no matter how vast, will still one day run out.

HOW THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THAT??????????????????????

How do you know that there is not an infinite amount of fuel for stars...and that it will NEVER run out?

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@oralloy,

What about stellar nurseries? And what about black holes? Some believe that whatever is swallowed by a black hole emerges somewhere else.
There are a lot of theories about these things, but as far as I know, none of them are confirmed.

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@oralloy,

Oralloy, my last two posts to you got heated. You are due more respect...and I apologize. These things happen.

Another thought that occurs to me:

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The only fuel the stars have to burn, is what already exists for them to burn.

Scientists tell us that there is no burning going on in stars. No oxygen...no burning...and there is no oxygen. The process is nuclear fusion--which give a superficial appearance of burning.

In any case, I should not have been asking you how you know the supply of fuel is finite, because it is obvious you do not know. Nobody does. The universe MAY BE infinite...not finite.

Which, ultimately, is my point.

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@Frank Apisa,

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The universe MAY BE infinite...not finite.

Quite so Frank.
I assume you’d agree that if it’s infinite there’s matter throughout, an infinite amount of course. But if anything that can happen, will—and sorry if I’m repeating my early outrageous assertions--then it follows that there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies, say, with me and you and Ora chatting; an infinite number identical except one molecule in your eye is in a slightly different position, etc ad infinitum

Of course it MY BE but Intuition strongly objects

Mine anyhow

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@dalehileman,

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Quite so Frank.

I assume you’d agree that if it’s infinite there’s matter throughout, an infinite amount of course. But if anything that can happen, will—and sorry if I’m repeating my early outrageous assertions--then it follows that there must be an infinite number of identical galaxies, say, with me and you and Ora chatting; an infinite number identical except one molecule in your eye is in a slightly different position, etc ad infinitum

If the universe is infinite, there MAY indeed be an infinite number of identical galaxies. There MAY be an infinite number of identical people...with NO molecules different.

All of that MAY be.

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Of course it MY BE but Intuition strongly objects

That is interesting. I thank you for sharing it.

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Mine anyhow

I understand. Mine has no problem with it at all.

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@Frank Apisa,

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I understand. Mine has no problem with it at all.

Okay Frank but mull it over. My conscious mind agrees, given infinity forever, that there’s no reason at each and every moment we can’t be one of an infinite number of identical productions. It’s only a subconscious reaction that objects so vigorously. It might be interesting to take a poll, see how many others share my reaction

Or yours

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@dalehileman,

I understand why you may be troubled with the concept, Dale, but my guess (strictly a guess) is that the REALITY is a hell of a lot more strange than something like this. Fact is, if the universe is infinite...then it is almost certain that the REALITY of what is...IS a lot stranger than identical you's and me's all over the place.

REALITY is a mother to think about!

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@Frank Apisa,

Yes Frank, thanks again, but my position arises from the idea that we almost have to work with what we’ve got else why even discuss Time, matter, The Universe. etc

The intuitional absurdity of infinite numbers of simultaneous absolutely identical galaxies incidentally might be put to rest by assuming a finite Universe, and so I lean that way

However it doesn’t relieve my skepticism unless we also challenge foreverness. But when we do, we now have to explain for instance how The Whole Shebang can all arise out of nothingness

Thus by no means do I have all the answers or for that matter any at all

Though it’s stimulating to speculate. I propose that our math is defective, being developed as it is by the finite humanoid mind. So meanwhile I propose the idea of exact reproductions rests on a fallacy in our thinking about chance, that in a serial Universe forever, even under a consistent set of rules, there’s no chance of repetition. But why not

Maybe because there are different kinds of infinities, some bigger than others

Wild speculation yes

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@Frank Apisa,

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Tell us how you know the REALITY of existence. It sounds like an interesting story.

..that got to be the funniest sentence you wrote so far...self evidently is pointless to explain you why...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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..that got to be the funniest sentence you wrote so far...self evidently is pointless to explain you why...

That is even funnier.

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perhaps if ALL of us delved into Cosmic Plasmas' this thread would have never been such a mystery

http://plasmauniverse.info/

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@Frank Apisa,

You indulge to much on pseudo profoundness Frank...your "how do you know that" is nothing short then a poor replacement for lack of opinion or convictions...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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You indulge to much on pseudo profoundness Frank...your "how do you know that" is nothing short then a poor replacement for lack of opinion or convictions...

Perhaps you are correct, Fil.

But let me give the "opinion and convictions" thingy a try.

I think everything you said here is a bunch of horseshit. My opinion is that you must have gotten it from three year old and I am completely of the conviction that you do not know what in hell you are talking about.

How'd I do, Fil?

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@north,

Just a warning this site, despite its noted denial, is “The Electric Universe”. They have been so ridiculed by the scientific community that they are rebranding I guess. Here is one of the many glaring errors I noted in a brief perusal.

” The only place in the Universe where plasma is not found, that is a non-hydrodynamic treatment is valid for the matter present, is the crustal regions of planets: in the solar system, the inner planets (Alfvén, 1976).”

The mean free path of a photon, let alone a matter particle in the radiative part of stellar cores is on the order of 10EXP -32 cm. It would be a neat trick to produce plasma in THAT environment.

Take everything there with a big grain of salt. Gunagasnake is the local authority on this creed

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@Frank Apisa,

You are a really dumb Jack aren't you Frank ? not only profoundly ignorant on almost every subject but incapable of a straight thought or two lines of coherent reasoning...you do as all a favour and resume your ignorance to yourself or go get some reading, you badly need it, old fool !

For any subject we can debate an infinite amount of propositions can be made ad nausea the fundamental distinction being we should give consideration to those to which good reason or justification was or is presented...so far Frank your possibility's have been lacking of any justification as you don't even bother to support your poor guess work...

Limited as your reasoning is the level down weapon of election of your wording arsenal inevitably ends with an how do you know that... a dreadful and pathetic reboot on any debate forming up...you confuse lack of certainty with lack of justification or lack of good reason and thus tend to equate your breathtaking ignorance with others lack of absolute certainty...let me just tell you that you don't make enough up for a neat trick of words mon cher ami !

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Viability of foreverness

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