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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 07:19 pm
This is a long thread. Don't know if it's been posted here before, but worth repeating these words from King Lear:

Quote:
This is the excellent foppery of the world that when we are sick in fortune—often the surfeit of our own behavior—we make guilty of our disasters the sun, the moon, and the stars, as if we were villains by necessity, fools by heavenly compulsion, knaves, thieves, and treachers by spherical predominance, drunkards, liars, and adulterers by an enforced obedience of planetary influence, and all that we are evil in by a divine thrusting-on. An admirable evasion of whoremaster man, to lay his goatish disposition to the charge of a star! My father compounded with my mother under the dragon’s tail and my nativity was under Ursa Major, so that it follows I am rough and lecherous. Fut, I should have been that I am, had the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my bastardizing.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 07:24 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
The free will debate is specifically about making conscious decisions.


Words (concepts) such as "conscious" and "subconscious, like the words "cause," "will," and "gravity" are used to refer to processes which we cannot observe (they are simply mental constructs, not something we "see" out there in the world) and which we don't really understand. Use of one's own subjective understanding of such concepts to "settle" questions is inherently unempirical and would seem to be speculative at best.

Quote:
How the brain constructs consciousness is still a mystery, and cracking it open would have a significant bearing on the question of free will. Numerous different models have been proposed, for example, the Multiple Drafts Model which argues that there is no central Cartesian theater where conscious experience would be represented, but rather that consciousness is located all across the brain. This model would explain the delay between the decision and conscious realization...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will


According to that wiki article, any "findings" of neuroscience are meager and inclusive, subject to extensive debate even in the limited arenas where experiments have been conducted. The differing "conclusions" reached by various interpretations are, like all "interpretations," highly dependent on unproven assumptions.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 07:28 pm
@neologist,
Like you, Neo, I have read only a fraction of this thread, so I don't know if that has been posted either. I did post, a page or two back, a quote from Ambrose Bierce which succinctly restated Shakespeare's point. It was contained in his definition of "responsibility" (from The Devil's Dictionary).
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 08:17 pm
@layman,
To finish the partial quote I cited in the prior post (emphasis mine):
Quote:

In contrast, there exist models of Cartesian materialism that have gained recognition by neuroscience, implying that there might be special brain areas that store the contents of consciousness; this does not, however, rule out the possibility of a conscious will[/b]

Other models such as epiphenomenalism argue that conscious will is an illusion, and that consciousness is a by-product of physical states of the world. Work in this sector is still highly speculative, [/i]and researchers favor no single model of consciousness. (See also: Philosophy of mind.)


Elsewhere in the article, the philosopher Daniel Dennet is quoted as saying:

Quote:
...scientists, especially in the last few years, have been on a rampage - writing ill-considered public pronouncements about free will which... verge on social irresponsibility.


It does not appear viable to attempt to claim that "neuroscience" has somehow resolved the issue of "free will." Far from it.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 08:22 pm
@layman,
Noted and copied
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 08:37 pm
@neologist,
Some (opponents of free will) in this thread have suggested that belief in free will arises from some sort of authoritarian psychological condition that seeks to mete out punishment.

I don't buy that, but those suggesting that subjective desires play a part when advocating free will don't seem to even imagine that such arguments run on a two-way street: One could speculate that those who oppose free will do so only because they don't want to be accountable for their actions.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:02 pm
@layman,
I have often, while under the influence of LSD, got the distinct impressions that I could "read people's minds." When something was said, be it by someone on TV, someone in the room, or whatever, I knew, word for word, exactly what they were going to say, BEFORE they said it.

I later concluded that this false impression was a consequence of a slowed down reaction time in my "conscious" brain. In reality, I first heard, and processed, the words being said at a "subconscious" level, but by the time I consciously processed that same statement, I ended up thinking that I had just "heard" the same thing twice (once in my mind, again when it was "actually" spoken).

I hate when that happens.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:35 pm
A follow-up on the Libet experiments:

Quote:
Nature Neuroscience 11, 543 - 545 (2008)
Published online: 13 April 2008 | doi:10.1038/nn.2112

Chun Siong Soon
Marcel Brass
Hans-Jochen Heinze
John-Dylan Haynes
Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain

Chun Siong Soon1,2, Marcel Brass1,3, Hans-Jochen Heinze4 & John-Dylan Haynes1,2

Abstract
There has been a long controversy as to whether subjectively 'free' decisions are determined by brain activity ahead of time. We found that the outcome of a decision can be encoded in brain activity of prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 10 s before it enters awareness. This delay presumably reflects the operation of a network of high-level control areas that begin to prepare an upcoming decision long before it enters awareness.


http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v11/n5/full/nn.2112.html
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:38 pm
Seems that when people do actual experiments, rather than indulge in a priori speculation, the results don't look good for free will so far:

http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(10)01082-2

Quote:
Internally Generated Preactivation of Single Neurons in Human Medial Frontal Cortex Predicts Volition
Itzhak Friedcorrespondenceemail, Roy Mukamel, Gabriel Kreiman

Highlights
Progressive changes in firing rates precede self-initiated movements
Medial frontal cortex units signal volition onset before subjects' awareness
Prediction level is high (90%) based on neuronal responses in single trials
Volition could arise from accumulation of ensemble activity crossing a threshold
Summary
Understanding how self-initiated behavior is encoded by neuronal circuits in the human brain remains elusive. We recorded the activity of 1019 neurons while twelve subjects performed self-initiated finger movement. We report progressive neuronal recruitment over ∼1500 ms before subjects report making the decision to move. We observed progressive increase or decrease in neuronal firing rate, particularly in the supplementary motor area (SMA), as the reported time of decision was approached. A population of 256 SMA neurons is sufficient to predict in single trials the impending decision to move with accuracy greater than 80% already 700 ms prior to subjects' awareness. Furthermore, we predict, with a precision of a few hundred ms, the actual time point of this voluntary decision to move. We implement a computational model whereby volition emerges once a change in internally generated firing rate of neuronal assemblies crosses a threshold.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:42 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Seems that when people do actual experiments, rather than indulge in a priori speculation, the results don't look good for free will so far:


1. I assume you have me on ignore, FBM, because you makes posts which appear to be entirely oblivious of posts I have already made on the same topic.

2. As previously noted, INTERPRETATIONS of the "meaning" of "actual experiments" are themselves often premised on assumptions derived from "a priori speculation."
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 11:05 pm
@FBM,
I was basing my argument on the undeterminist behavior of biochemicat particles, but nevermind. The whole point is that stuff can happen by chance. The future is not predetermined. Hazard is a factor, a 'cause' in this world. Do we know what causes hazard? Isn't that a cause without cause, at least in apparence?

I don't buy any of the anti-free-will experiments I've read about - i bet you a beer I can beat any of yhese. Just concentrate on the red button like crazy and then press the red. Do that half of the times and their RMI-hooked computer will get lost.

And just because some scientist thinks that consciousness is the end-all be-all of free will doesn't mean it's true. Free will can be conceptualuzed in several ways.

FBM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 02:13 am
@Olivier5,
I respect your position; it is the majority one, by far. Could you link me to some research that supports it?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 03:34 am
@Olivier5,
This didn't come out well. Now fixed.

Olivier5 wrote:

I was basing my argument on the undeterminist behavior of biochemicals, not sub-atomic particles, but nevermind. The whole point is that stuff can happen by chance. The future is not predetermined. Hazard is a factor, a 'cause' in this world. Do we know what causes hazard? Isn't that a cause without cause, at least in apparence?

I don't buy any of the anti-free-will experiments I've read about bet you a beer I can beat any of these. Just concentrate on the red button like crazy and then press the GREEN. Do that half of the times and their RMI-hooked computer will get lost.

And just because some scientist thinks that consciousness is the end-all be-all of free will doesn't mean it's true. Free will can be conceptualuzed in several ways.


0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 03:40 am
@FBM,
Me think we need to try and define what we,re talking about.

I don'nt like the term "free will", personnally. I prefer the French version which translates as free CHOICE (libre arbitre), or the English "agency" = being an agent. I'll try and come up with a definition.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 03:43 am
@layman,
Quote:
Some (opponents of free will) in this thread have suggested that belief in free will arises from some sort of authoritarian psychological condition that seeks to mete out punishment.


While I would only go as far as saying that the language and logic statements that can be derived from the concept support a given position, punishment and sin have gone hand-in-hand with the view that people are the ultimate originator's of their actions. If you buy illegal drugs, you could have chosen differently (which I maintain is true, but not because the person operates independently from the environment), but the failure is a personal failure (again, without respect to prior selective consequences) and the person must be punished. If you dont' believe in Jesus, then we are told that a sin was committed given that God gave man freewill. He had to give free will as an all powerful god would simply have created a man incapable of sin.

Quote:
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world…..Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels….then they will go away to eternal punishment.


The notion of this type of freewill used to be extended to non-human animals too. In the bible it was written that animals that kill people need to be stoned to death. For centuries animals were brought to legal trials so that punishments for the problems they caused could be determined. Animals were also hanged (as recently as 1916) if the animal caused the death of a human.

Since then we generally have regarded the behavior of non-human animals differently. But here's an important point. Just because we no longer attribute freewill to nonhuman animals does not mean that we have stopped dealing with their behavior when we judge it as dangerous. When bears come into a park area with people and people feed them, reinforcing the bear's approach behavior, people are happy to have their up close experience. But when they run out of food or it's a person who simply doesn't want to interact that way and the approach behaviors are put on extinction, then very predictably we see aggressiveness of varying levels...and then we shoot the bear. With less threatening examples people generally acknowledge that the death of the bear was necessitated because of the interference of the human.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 05:06 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
I don't buy any of the anti-free-will experiments I've read about


You aint alone there, Ollie. For one thing, the premises underlying the conclusions are suspect:

Quote:
A study conducted by Jeff Miller and Judy Trevena (2009) suggests that the readiness potential (RP) signal in Libet's experiments doesn't represent a decision to move, but that it's merely a sign that the brain is paying attention...The researchers found that there was the same RP signal in both cases, regardless of whether or not volunteers actually elected to tap, which suggests that the RP signal doesn't indicate that a decision has been made..

Libet's interpretation of the ramping up of brain activity prior to the report of conscious "will" continues to draw heavy criticism. Studies have questioned participants' ability to report the timing of their "will"....Despite his findings, Libet himself did not interpret his experiment as evidence of the inefficacy of conscious free will.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will

FBM asks for studies but apparently pays no attention whatsoever to those presented to him. I have to presume that he has me on "ignore," but even the most basic inquiry into the "neuroscience of free will" would expose one to the studies which question Libet. Yet he says:

Quote:
Seems that when people do actual experiments, rather than indulge in a priori speculation, the results don't look good for free will so far


Highly selective reading on display there, eh?

layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 06:16 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
In the bible it was written that animals that kill people need to be stoned to death.


There have always been arguments in favor of "punishment" that have nothing to do with "moral responsibility." One is deterrence, of which two types have been distinguished, to wit:

1. General deterrence: The idea here is that people other than the perpetrator will, by witnessing the punishment imposed, be deterred from acting in a similar fashion.

2. Specific deterrence: The idea here is that punishment will "specifically deter" the one being punished from repeating his action. The goal is to prevent future incidents from that same individual.

I can see no more effective means of accomplishing "specific deterrence" than by imposing the death penalty, know what I'm sayin?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 06:36 am
@layman,
Quote:
There have always been arguments in favor of "punishment" that have nothing to do with "moral responsibility."...I can see no more effective means of accomplishing "specific deterrence" than by imposing the death penalty, know what I'm sayin?


I mean, like, think about it, eh? Suppose some tiger suddenly jumps out of the jungle and chews up the ass of one of you homeys, all while you have a sawed-off shotgun in your mitts.

Are ya gunna just let that tiger saunter back off into the jungle when he's through munchin? I don't think so! Forget revenge. The desire for self-preservation alone would induce you to smoke that sucker's ass, doncha think?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 07:02 am
@layman,
Quote:
General deterrence: The idea here is that people other than the perpetrator will, by witnessing the punishment imposed, be deterred from acting in a similar fashion
.




Evidently, the lions in this video, have been "generally deterred" from trying to **** with humans, eh? Whether this is due to genetic mutations favored by "evolution," from prior observation, or whatever, the point remains: You get your meat because they done learned their lesson about what will happen if they try to stop you. They have witnessed the "punishment" imposed on other lions who resist man's will.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2015 08:35 am
@layman,
Why is no one talking about free willing requiring itself determinism in this pseudo debate eh ???
Usually ppl don't atributte their actions to statistical probability or random variation...they assume causality between willing and acting from it.
Making a debate on free will that totally forgoes debating the contradiction the concept itself indulges in is very amateurish...

Moreover there is the problem of substance in a world of physics where actions and reactions take place...

Free Willing is one of those middle ages obscure concepts that fails to address its own internal lack of consistency !
 

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